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Monster Deployment Question


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#1 archontireq

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:34 PM

Sorry if this has been answered already, did a search and came up naught.

 

Basically my mate plays as overlord and he likes big beasties. When he deploys them, such as "open group deploys in ruins" he says "the rules say that when the monster moves it is assumed to be only the size of one square and as long as there is enough space to place it on the map it can be turned or slotted in wherever"

 

What he does is place the shadow dragon so that the front two bits of him are in the room that he is meant to be in, and the rest of him blocking the hallway so I cannot get past him. Normally I would kill him but my rolling is occassionaly appaling and as a result, Sir Palamon and the cardinal are usually creamed before I can get them.

 

So my question is can he deploy monsters so that only one bit of them is in the space they are meant to be in, and the rest anywhere according to movement rules? Personaly I argue that he cant because those rules only apply to movement not deploying but if I argue too much he will spit the dummy and not play anymore. After creaming me in every encounter he still complains that the reanimate is overpowered…



#2 FF_Chris

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:16 PM

 Sounds like he is playing it right from your description. 



#3 Schmiegel

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

I think he is playing it wrong. The rule he cites pertains to movement, not initial deployment. Plain and simple, he's deploying in "illegal" territory.  

 



#4 archontireq

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:32 PM

Schmiegel said:

I think he is playing it wrong. The rule he cites pertains to movement, not initial deployment. Plain and simple, he's deploying in "illegal" territory.  

 

 

My thoughts exactly, but without a rule to reference his outlook is essentially "If the rules dont say it cant do it, then I can do it". Apparently me saying the rules dont forbid me butchering him with an axe isnt relevant. 

 

Nevertheless he continues to deploy 2/3rds of his shadow dragon in the wrong area. As far as I am concerned, if you are told to deploy in X room then you must deploy only in X room. Theres really nothing stopping him from starting in the heroes entrance on some missions and its starting to annoy me because I still stand by the 1st ed rushing thing, and it doesnt work when evil dragons are blocking my way. 



#5 FF_Chris

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:28 AM

 I apologize for misleading you, I thought your question was in regard to movement. when setting up and reinforcing monsters they must fully be in the room they start in. The only exception would be if when reinforcing the closest open square to the reinforcment area was outside of the room.



#6 Steve-O

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:02 PM

archontireq said:

My thoughts exactly, but without a rule to reference his outlook is essentially "If the rules dont say it cant do it, then I can do it". Apparently me saying the rules dont forbid me butchering him with an axe isnt relevant.

Personally, I would just refuse to play the game with someone who approached the rules like that, but I'm guessing that's not really an option for you.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's an official rule that says he can't do that, but I agree with everyone else that it's clearly wrong. For starters, monsters only shrink and expand when moving, and initial deployment is not movement. In fact, initial deployment happens during the "setup" portion of the game, which is an entirely different phase from the "Player Turns" portion where things like Move Actions can be declared.

Another option would be for you to start playing as Overlord, and use his own dirty tricks against him. I'd be curious to see if he was still so convinced that this ruling was correct when he's not the one deploying large figures.

FF_Chris said:

The only exception would be if when reinforcing the closest open square to the reinforcment area was outside of the room.

That's an interesting hypothesis, but I don't recall reading a rule that says you can do this when the designated reinforcement point is blocked.  I would appreciate hearing of any official sources you may have to support it, though.



#7 Robin

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

An exception I would see is when a six square sized monster reinforces on a four square entry or exit tile.

Part of it will necessarily "spill" off the tile.

See setup instructions in the Quest Guide, p. 2


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#8 archontireq

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

Steve-O said:

archontireq said:

 

My thoughts exactly, but without a rule to reference his outlook is essentially "If the rules dont say it cant do it, then I can do it". Apparently me saying the rules dont forbid me butchering him with an axe isnt relevant.

 

 

Personally, I would just refuse to play the game with someone who approached the rules like that, but I'm guessing that's not really an option for you.

 

 

Very limited pool of players. Its him, or my games become dust collectors. 

 

But thanks guys, ill let him know and hopefully not waste so much time trying to roll surges to kill dragons. 



#9 Robin

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:56 PM

This quotation of the Quest Guide, p. 2, may help :

Monster figures may be placed anywhere on the tile or tiles indicated in the setup instructions, provided that those spaces are empty.
If there is not enough room on the map tile for all the monsters in the group to be placed, excess monsters may be placed in the closest available empty spaces.

I would interpret that if all the monsters are only "a bog one" which hasn't enough room, most of it must be placed on the tile.

Anyway, the corollary of the rules is that if there is enough room for the monster, he must set up on the tile.

Note a quite similar explanation under the Reinforcements section :

If a reinforcing monster cannot be placed as indicated in this section because the tile is full, the monster is placed in the closest empty space(s) instead.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#10 Steve-O

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:22 AM

Robin said:

Note a quite similar explanation under the Reinforcements section :

If a reinforcing monster cannot be placed as indicated in this section because the tile is full, the monster is placed in the closest empty space(s) instead.

Ah, very good.  That particular rule had escaped my attention before now, but it's nice to know it's there.  So heroes can't block off the reinforcement point to prevent the OL from bringing in new monsters, after all.



#11 AnChorr

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:32 PM

I agree here with you guys as to the deployment. The rules clearly state to place monsters inside a tile.

I would like to follow this question. And ask about OL's deployment on special tokens.

For example can OL place his/hers monsters at start on a treasure token or any other token e.g. in one quest there are special tokens which are teleporters?

I wonder if in the end it is all up the the OL and how annoying he/she wants to be?



#12 Robin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:59 PM

I don't think that the presence of a monster upon a Search token prohibits an adjacent hero to search it - nor a hero to activate a special token if a monster is sitting on it.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#13 AnChorr

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:39 PM

Robin said:

I don't think that the presence of a monster upon a Search token prohibits an adjacent hero to search it - nor a hero to activate a special token if a monster is sitting on it.

Yea you can still search or activate though with these teleporters you had to move on it so it would block you, thus it is important if in this way OL can block you from using it, I wonder.



#14 Ispher

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:47 AM

AnChorr said:

Robin said:

 

I don't think that the presence of a monster upon a Search token prohibits an adjacent hero to search it - nor a hero to activate a special token if a monster is sitting on it.

 

 

Yea you can still search or activate though with these teleporters you had to move on it so it would block you, thus it is important if in this way OL can block you from using it, I wonder.

What would be the use of monsters close to teleporters if they could not block access to these teleporters?

Heroes would run, leave through the teleporters, and the monsters would just sit there with no purpose because heroes would have left?



#15 Robin

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:59 AM

Monsters can block access between the heroes and tokens.

But just sitting on them doesn't prevent an adjacent hero to search (or activate) - unless a quest's special rule says it does.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#16 AnChorr

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:35 PM

Yea I agree. I was only wondering if there are any restriction as to placing monsters on 'special spaces' (those with some token) on start, but it becomes apparent that there is none.

I was also wondering if even though a monster sits on one teleport you could technically still teleport there then teleport to next teleport finally stoping on the one which is empty. Though after re-reading rules which say that you treat them as adjacent spaces the answer would be no, i.e. you cannot teleport to a place where a monster is located, right?



#17 Steve-O

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 04:34 PM

AnChorr said:

Yea I agree. I was only wondering if there are any restriction as to placing monsters on 'special spaces' (those with some token) on start, but it becomes apparent that there is none.

There is none.  The 2E definition of an "empty space" is any space which does not contain a figure and which does not block LoS or Movement.  Monsters must be placed on "empty spaces" during set up, and none of these tokens (generally) qualify.

AnChorr said:

I was also wondering if even though a monster sits on one teleport you could technically still teleport there then teleport to next teleport finally stoping on the one which is empty. Though after re-reading rules which say that you treat them as adjacent spaces the answer would be no, i.e. you cannot teleport to a place where a monster is located, right?

Correct.  The monster doesn't technically block line of sight to the teleporter it's standing on (because of the special rules for "teleporter LoS") but you still can't move into a space containing an enemy figure, so you can't teleport "past" the monster to another teleporter.






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