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Flood Waters


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#1 WWDrakey

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:57 PM

New neutral event Flood Waters states:

Any Phase: Kneel 2 influence or kneel 1 Warship location to choose a River plot card in any player's used plot pile. Trigger that plot's 'When revealed' effect as if you had just revealed it.

How does this interact with the second portion of the River plots?

Let's take On Dagger Lake as an example:

River When revealed, each opponent chooses and discards 1 card from his or her hand, if able. Then, if this is your revealed plot card, trigger the 'when revealed' effect of the top River plot card in your used pile.

In short: Does the 'as if you had just revealed it' allow the restriction on the Then part to be fulfilled?



#2 ktom

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:44 PM

WWDrakey said:

In short: Does the 'as if you had just revealed it' allow the restriction on the Then part to be fulfilled?

No. Same as you would not be able to use any "after you reveal a plot card" passives.

 

I'll admit that the intention may have been otherwise, but think of Baelor Blacktyde (cannot play copies of events that are in your discard pile) and KotSea Robert (play an "Any Phase" event from your discard pile as if you had played it from your hand). We know that Blacktyde "trumps" Robert because even though you "pretend" the event is coming from your hand, it is still in your discard pile. Following that same logic, even though you "pretend" you just revealed the chosen River plot, it is not actually your revealed plot.

So, since River plots require the plot, as it resolves, to BE your currently revealed plot in order to get the "second effect," this event will never meet the restrictions for that "second effect" because the resolving plot effect is on a plot card that is still in the used pile.

I totally agree that the intention may have been otherwise, but the practical resolution says "no."



#3 WWDrakey

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:34 AM

I was pretty much guessing on those lines, the wording does hint of an intent in that direction, but that's irrelevant really. 

Thanks!



#4 kr4ng

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 02:46 AM

I sent the question to FFG, because I believe they actually wanted to make a good card where it does perform the "then" portion of the river plot.



#5 Bomb

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:08 AM

Either way, I think triggering the normal "when revealed" of some of those River plots as an "Any Phase" player action can be very helpful.  If it can trigger the entirety of those plots, then it's even better.  The thing is, you may run into what may be confusing with "Then, if this is your revealed plot card, trigger the 'when revealed' effect of the top River plot card in your used pile."  So, if I use this event and it triggers the entirety of the plot, then if I choose to trigger the first used River plot, I then trigger it again?  Could be nasty.



#6 db123456

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:04 AM

 if I play this card and under the bridge of dream in the used pile of all players ,I will get 4gold?



#7 ktom

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:37 AM

db123456 said:

 if I play this card and under the bridge of dream in the used pile of all players ,I will get 4gold?
No. You choose and trigger an individual plot card, not all plot cards in all discard piles with the same name.



#8 kr4ng

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:59 AM

They still haven't responded to my question.  I am hoping they actually made the card playable.  We shall see…



#9 ktom

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:14 AM

kr4ng said:

They still haven't responded to my question.  I am hoping they actually made the card playable.  We shall see…
The answer will be no, I bet.

Not only does the wording not work out (all River plots say "then, if this is your revealed plot card…"; the plot you trigger with the event will never be your revealed plot card), but the "then" effect says to trigger the TOP River card in your used pile. So if I have River plots 1, 2, & 3 in my used pile, no matter which one I triggered with the event, #1 would be the one activated by the "then" effect - even if I chose to trigger #1, effectively getting its effect twice. Now there's an interesting paradox; somehow, #1 is considered both your revealed plot and the top River plot in your used pile at the same time?

So all of the weird interactions of order argue that no matter what the intention is, the card as worded will cause far fewer problems of execution. I would lay money that the answer is "just the effect of the River plot chosen, not the additional 'top River' through the 'then' effect."

 



#10 Bomb

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:10 AM

I think the event can be very playable as is.  It allows you to use 1 River plot in your plot deck(instead of the need of 3 or 4 to have them trigger off of each other) and it turns it into an Any Phase triggered effect. 

Before the Black Walls is one instance where I think you can use this event very effectively as long as you time it after you declare Attackers in a challenge type(so they either UO it or use a ton of characters to over defend it, probably a solid move with Rise of the Kraken revealed for you).  Even before the opponent declares attackers in a challenge type, they may think twice about doing so if you use this on Before the Black Walls to choose the one you want them to over commit in.

The other River plots I am not seeing too much value in it except for possibly in a dedicated Mill deck with Above the Sorrows(discard top of each opponents deck) and Pulled from the Rhoyne(place top dead character on top of each players deck. You will end up milling their character off the top of that deck anyway and probably claim power for Corpse Lake and maybe bring Theon Greyjoy back into play).

Will this be a must-include?  Absolutely not.  However, it does allow you to add 1 River plot to your plot deck and be able to use it without having additional River plots.  Therefore you don't have to empty your plot deck of your favorites.



#11 kr4ng

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:34 AM

Bomb said:

I think the event can be very playable as is.  It allows you to use 1 River plot in your plot deck(instead of the need of 3 or 4 to have them trigger off of each other) and it turns it into an Any Phase triggered effect. 

Before the Black Walls is one instance where I think you can use this event very effectively as long as you time it after you declare Attackers in a challenge type(so they either UO it or use a ton of characters to over defend it, probably a solid move with Rise of the Kraken revealed for you).  Even before the opponent declares attackers in a challenge type, they may think twice about doing so if you use this on Before the Black Walls to choose the one you want them to over commit in.

The other River plots I am not seeing too much value in it except for possibly in a dedicated Mill deck with Above the Sorrows(discard top of each opponents deck) and Pulled from the Rhoyne(place top dead character on top of each players deck. You will end up milling their character off the top of that deck anyway and probably claim power for Corpse Lake and maybe bring Theon Greyjoy back into play).

Will this be a must-include?  Absolutely not.  However, it does allow you to add 1 River plot to your plot deck and be able to use it without having additional River plots.  Therefore you don't have to empty your plot deck of your favorites.

Yeah you are making me a believer.  It will definitely require some testing in the right deck.

Anyways, Damon responded and it appears that you were right ktom--I was just hoping this one time, they would make something like this a little more powerful.



#12 db123456

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:11 PM

ktom said:

db123456 said:

 if I play this card and under the bridge of dream in the used pile of all players ,I will get 4gold?

No. You choose and trigger an individual plot card, not all plot cards in all discard piles with the same name.

 

 

sorry,I mean that there is only one rivers plot in all used pile and its under the bridge of dream



#13 ktom

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:49 AM

I'm not sure why using the event card to trigger the plot card would ever give you 4 gold when the plot itself only gives 2?

 



#14 Skowza

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:17 PM

Well, this card just went from 1 star to 0 then…  I guess it has its uses but its probably the worst one in the CP now.



#15 HomerJ

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:12 AM

Has there been any additional updates on this?  I still don't understand the discussion.

All the rivers basically say:  When revealed <do this> then if this is your revealed plot <do this>.

Flood Waters reads: . . .. choose a River in any player's used pile.  Trigger that plot's "When revealed" effect as if you had just revealed it.

So this is just a replacement effect, right?  The plot isn't the one you revealed, but the event is saying "treat it like you did just reveal it".  This should work as worded I would think?  I'm not sure I see a legitimate reason to assume otherwise.  It's not a "if played" effect.  It doesn't time like other cards because the terms used (played vs revealed) are different.

Has there been an official update?



#16 ktom

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:59 PM

HomerJ said:

Has there been an official update?
The official word is that the "as if" language only allows you to trigger the "when revealed" part of your chosen plot. The plot is still in your used pile. Triggering the effect "as if" you had just revealed does not change it's status, location, or plot state from "used pile" to "revealed plot." Because of that, the "if this is your revealed plot…" text is not true, and therefore does not activate.



#17 HomerJ

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:56 PM

That is . . . disappointing.  The Rivers are barely playable, but with the possibility of using Flood Waters to pile on the triggered effects along with KotHH gave me a small glimmer of hope.  I guess I'll just put them back in the binder . . . .

Thanks.



#18 Bolzano

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:10 AM

Somebody from our French board asked Damon stone who has answered the following :

"Yes, Floodwaters allows the chosen River plot to resolve its "then" effect."

 

However I completely agree with ktom and the previous Damon statement.

The main reason is that Flood Water 's "as if you had just revealed it." is only applicable to trigger the effect. And triggering the effect means step 4.1) Initiation. From Step 4.2), the effect is already considered to have been trigered/played. So the "as if" is no longer applicable when we arrive at step 4.3) Passive resolution. And that's when the "Then.." effect of Rover plot card kicks in. At that moment, the "as if…" from Flood Water no longer applies.



#19 ktom

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:58 AM

Bolzano said:

Somebody from our French board asked Damon stone who has answered the following :

"Yes, Floodwaters allows the chosen River plot to resolve its "then" effect."

It is so frustrating when FFG answers the same question two different ways.



#20 Bolzano

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:47 AM

So, I have informed Nate about the contradictory Damon rulings and asked him to confirm the original ruling and he did.

Here is his email:

"The original ruling made by ktom and backed up by Damon should be observed. The conflicting ruling likely emerged as a result of a misunderstanding in communication.
 
Looking at your rationale:
 
1) The effect is triggered "as if" the plot was just revealed, but it is not actually revealed
2) The event allows to trigger a River plot. According to AGOT Timing charts, triggering occurs in Step 1) Initiation. At Step 2), the event is considered to have been played/triggered even if cancelled (as per FAQ entry). So by its resolution in Step 3) we are no longer in the initiation/trigger phase when the River plot is "as if you had just revealed it". So now the "Then…" effect tries to initiate and fail.
 
#1 was the "literal" basis of the ruling; #2 is a very precise and well stated logical reading of the card."

 






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