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#1 Verpi

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:46 AM

My friends where discussing the timing of anytime. The rules state that you can ditch your items and followers anytime.

Now lets say that a thief wants an item from the warrior. but the warrior doesn't want the thief to have the item so he plans to ditch it. Its the thiefs turn and he is 1-6 spaces away. When can the warrior still ditch his item?

1) before the thief rolls the die

2) After the thief rolls the die

3) After the thief lands on the warrior's space

4) after the thief declairs he is going to encounter the warrior

5) after the thief declairs he is going to steal from the warrior

Same thing with spells

Lets say character A casts Aqusition on character B, again to take an item. When can character B still ditch his stuff?

1) before character A announces he's casting the spell

2) after character A announces he's casting the spell

3) after character A states who his target is

 



#2 0beron

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:49 PM

 Well, one thing, its probably easier to decide the 'when' when there are less players, like maybe two. May the best Adventurer win!

My thought would be, its gonna vary from game to game, because you won't always have the mix of characters with such a handy ability.

If I was playing with wife and she is the Thief, I would try to keep more than 6 spaces away from her as much as possible. But in a larger game that would not be possible and the more players the more likely you will get the Thief or receive the Acquisition spell or other combinations that I can't think of (but I know Velhart or someone will, snark snark!)



#3 Cruan

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:37 PM

Id say, theoretically, you could ditch the object even after he declares hes going to encounter your character, but not after he declares he is going to steal, but that wouldnt be very honourable. I think its fair to be able to ditch the object up until the point when he lands on your space so he can decide whether to pick it up or steal it from you, there can always be a dragon or something, which will guard it, if you ditch it.

But you know the usual game doesnt look like that, you dont declare every action and wait for the reaction, youre playing it so everyone can have fun.



#4 Velhart

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:59 AM

Verpi said:

My friends where discussing the timing of anytime. The rules state that you can ditch your items and followers anytime.

Now lets say that a thief wants an item from the warrior. but the warrior doesn't want the thief to have the item so he plans to ditch it. Its the thiefs turn and he is 1-6 spaces away. When can the warrior still ditch his item?

1) before the thief rolls the die

2) After the thief rolls the die

3) After the thief lands on the warrior's space

4) after the thief declairs he is going to encounter the warrior

5) after the thief declairs he is going to steal from the warrior

 

Option 3 is the best one. But you need to be quick.

As soon as the Thief says, that he is gonna steal, then it´s fair, that you may not ditch the item anymore.

 

It´s the same with CvC battles or psychic combats. You can ditch your objects before the combat begins, but if your opponent wins, then you may not ditch any object, until the opponent has choose the object that he want.

 



#5 0beron

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:59 AM

 agree totally with you!



#6 zealot12

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:32 AM

You cannot voluntarily  ditch objects/followers:

1)in the middle of an encounter with another character as an anti-theft measure. Or when the character already declared he's going to take an item from you(via a  spell, for instance.)

2) in the middle of resolving an adventure card, unless the resolution of the adventure card specifically requires or allows  ditching of  objects/followers, or you have reached your carrying capacity, and want to exchange objects you have just drawn for excess items in your inventory.

That's how we've always played,anyway.

Besides, in the scenario described in the above posts, options 2 and 3 would simply allow the thief to encounter the space with the ditched item.

Of course if there's a tough enemy on that space, ditching the object would make sense. Otherwise, I don't think so.



#7 The_Warlock

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 11:35 AM

Verpi said:

When can the warrior still ditch his item?

 

1) before the thief rolls the die

2) After the thief rolls the die

3) After the thief lands on the warrior's space

4) after the thief declairs he is going to encounter the warrior

5) after the thief declairs he is going to steal from the warrior

 

 

Velhart said:

 

Option 3 is the best one. But you need to be quick.

As soon as the Thief says, that he is gonna steal, then it´s fair, that you may not ditch the item anymore.

 

zealot12 said:

Besides, in the scenario described in the above posts, options 2 and 3 would simply allow the thief to encounter the space with the ditched item. 

 

 

 

This is not so easily solved out as it seems. I think option 1 will look illogical to most players, because it has no sense to ditch an Object to prevent a stealing that maybe will not occur; nevertheless, it's the only solution that does not create problems in handling it.

zealot points out that 2 and 3 would allow the Thief to encounter the space instead ad simply pickup the Object in most cases. Velhart suggests that option 5 could lead to potential problems (as well as option 4, IMHO). Problems generated by the Warrior ditching the desired Object or, potentially, all his Objects leaving the Thief with no Objects to steal (5) or forcing the Thief to declare an attack (4).

I would say the only legal way to ditch Objects to prevent the Thief from stealing is 1 (2 and 3 are also legal, but pointless in most cases).I'm sure nobody will go for it, so don't ditch Objects at all. Alchemize them if you can before the Thief declares to encounter your Character.

Same goes for Spells. Who says "I cast a Spell" first solves it first, barring the exceptions of Counterspell and Reflection Spell. You cannot play a Spell before an already casted Spell takes effect, and you can't do anything else except resolving the Spell. So the only available option is 1), if you consider it a viable choice (maybe for the Prophetess, who always knows which Spells are in each player's hands).

 



#8 Verpi

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:15 PM

Thanks for the answers. For our group we dicided on 5) for non spell abilities and 3) for the spells. I think it would depend on the group thats playing on what they consider legal or not.



#9 talismanamsilat

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:17 PM

The best way to handle this issue is as follows:

1) A character lands on the same space as another character and declares he is going to attack or use a special ability on that character.

2) The other character then has the option to evade the character.

3) Both characters then have the option of casting Spells (for attacks), implementing optional add-ons (for attacks), ditching items, or turning Objects into gold.

NO MORE DITCHING OBJECTS, ETC

4) Attack rolls take place or the character implements his special ability.

5) Winner claims reward.

Ell.



#10 talismanamsilat

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:07 PM

talismanamsilat said:

The best way to handle this issue is as follows:

1) A character lands on the same space as another character and declares he is going to attack or use a special ability on that character.

2) The other character then has the option to evade the character.

3) Both characters then have the option of casting Spells (for attacks), implementing optional add-ons (for attacks), ditching items, or turning Objects into gold.

NO MORE DITCHING OBJECTS, ETC

4) Attack rolls take place or the character implements his special ability.

5) Winner claims reward.

Ell.

This is based upon existing rules in the core rulebook!

Ell.



#11 zealot12

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:35 PM

The one time we use the ditching objects/followers  rule is when trying to evade  foreseen unfortunate encounters.

Example:  The Sorceress  has 1 one life remaining, with no fate. She casts Divination. The top card in the Adventure deck is the Angel. It would kill her if she were to draw it. So, instead of drawing it, she ditches an object or follower of her choice(can't be a negative follower) on the draw space where she lands, thus filling the draw quota. She doesn't need to draw a card in this case.

The next player would then have  to encounter  the Angel if he lands on a "draw" space.

Ditching objects/followers in the middle of an encounter defeats the whole purpose of the encounter, which is to steal something from another player.

 



#12 The_Warlock

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:58 PM

talismanamsilat said:

talismanamsilat said:

 

The best way to handle this issue is as follows:

1) A character lands on the same space as another character and declares he is going to attack or use a special ability on that character.

2) The other character then has the option to evade the character.

3) Both characters then have the option of casting Spells (for attacks), implementing optional add-ons (for attacks), ditching items, or turning Objects into gold.

NO MORE DITCHING OBJECTS, ETC

4) Attack rolls take place or the character implements his special ability.

5) Winner claims reward.

Ell.

 

 

This is based upon existing rules in the core rulebook!

Ell.

Yes, I agree and know what's written in the rulebook, but if you allow ditching/turning Objects into Gold between steps 1) "declare that you're going to attack or use a special ability" and 4) "attack or use a special ability" it may change the conditions that lead to the first decision. It's ok to use Spells to do so, because Spells are meant to change things, but if you could turn all your Objects into Gold or even ditch all your possessions, then the Thief may always be forced to attack at step 4) even though he meant to steal at step 1).

Or can he use his stealing special ability and take nothing?



#13 BanthaFodder

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:43 PM

 A great example of why it has taken this long to get a computerized version of Talisman and why it is originally single player.

Controlling sequencing of events in Talisman was always the headache and created the biggest arguments.



#14 frogemoth

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:21 AM

In our game we made that very simple, you can only ditch cards when it is in your turn. No more hassle as long as everyone agree to the rule, which we do ;)



#15 zealot12

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:28 AM

That's how we play too, with the exception of ditching objects mid-encounter. By this I mean, you can't just ditch the Mule to avoid the effect of the Horse Thief you drew, or ditch all gold coins to evade the Raiders.

As for the OP, that's what the Thief is all about: getting one object freely from any character he encounters instead of fighting over its possession.

Outside of evading/blocking  the Thief via a disruptive   spell or a special ability, you can't prevent the theft of the item if he encounters your character.



#16 GrimGuvna

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:08 PM

There are 2 ways to handle this I believe.

The simple and agreeable way and my preference is that you can only ditch ojects at anytime during "your" turn, which feels right and alleviates such confusion and will probably be the method of usage in the forthcoming PC game. 

Ditching during other peoples turn adds confusion and kinda defeats the object (pardon the pun) of taking advantage of a lucky roll to encounter another character and attempt to defeat them to take an object ( whats Talisman without constant backstabbing).  I mean why bother when the other player will just throw it on the floor. It doesnt make any sense from a story perspective either and requires the players to enter into the spirit of the game (which is semi RPG almost). 

Think about it like this, the warrior during his travel through the woods comes across the wizard who throws his talisman onto the floor and proudly boasts that the warrior cannot claim the Talisman.  The warrior smirks and easily beats the wizard in a duke out and then finds he cannot bend down and pick the talisman up.  Doesnt make sense and is not conducive to any benefit risked in taking on the wizard in an encounter.  Now no doubt some people will think "yeah but maybe the wizard saw the warrior coming and hid it before the encounter"  Now that is getting into the territory of RPG's and beyond the scope of the game. I could easily counter and say well after the warrior beat the wizard he forced the wizard to confess to where it was and retrieved it.  When would it end.  Board games need clear boundries that make logical sense to preserve fun and continuity which Talisman does generally magnificently.

For the second option If your group insists on being able to ditch at literally anytime then it makes sense to do so during step 2 of the encounter after any evasion and during spellcasting, but not before the dice are rolled ( the cut off point for tactical decisions).  This would then become the "Basic Rule" which is an important distiction for the following quote in relation to the scenario concerning the thiefs special ability:-

Special Ability vs. Rules  (Page 15)

In any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance
with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always
overrides the rules.

With regards to the theif unless his target evades somehow when his special ability to steal would overide the rest of the basic process and usurp the tactical options to cast spells and ditch objects.  After all his ability is a stealth ability in a story sense.

Some form of official clarification on this would be most appreciated no doubt as it can significantly affect how encounters are handles in a game.

 



#17 Uvatha

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 05:26 PM

frogemoth said:

In our game we made that very simple, you can only ditch cards when it is in your turn. No more hassle as long as everyone agree to the rule, which we do ;)

yep, this is a great way of fixing this prob. Anyways you should only be allowed to ditch items in your turn. Now turning items to gold I think you can do but only before the thief declares he is encountering you.



#18 talismanamsilat

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:04 PM

All a character needs to do is to declare that he is going to encounter another character in a space. The other character can then choose to evade the character, ditch items, convert items into gold etc. before the battle or special ability occurs. Example: A character ditches the Amulet so that he can cast Invisibilty to evade the Thief who wishes to encounter him (the Thief does not need to say whether he is attacking the character or stealing from him, just that he chooses to encounter the character). The very act of ditching the Amulet to cast the Invisibility Spell suggests that ditching should take place during the Evade step of encountering another character!

Ell.



#19 Uvatha

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:59 PM

talismanamsilat said:

All a character needs to do is to declare that he is going to encounter another character in a space. The other character can then choose to evade the character, ditch items, convert items into gold etc. before the battle or special ability occurs. Example: A character ditches the Amulet so that he can cast Invisibilty to evade the Thief who wishes to encounter him (the Thief does not need to say whether he is attacking the character or stealing from him, just that he chooses to encounter the character). The very act of ditching the Amulet to cast the Invisibility Spell suggests that ditching should take place during the Evade step of encountering another character!

Ell.

For the pupose of casting invisibilty to evade the thief ok, but the point is its a bit pointless for the thief declaring he is going to encounter the character then that player ditches all their items, because now the theif has to fight the character because they have no items to steal?

I think ditching items should be allowed out of a players turn if "and only if" its key to doing a action that will lead to evading the special ability. Anything else is not a fair counter to a special ability. This will make the ruling right abut also not hinder the thief.

Other than that you have to allow the Theif to change he's mind about encountering the character.

Matt.






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