Jump to content



Photo

Basic - Trained - +10% - +20% and BlackCrusade +%30?


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 ExGemini

ExGemini

    Member

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:54 AM

Me again…

I've read and read again both the DeathWatch and BlackCrusade skill section to understand this issue.

According to the DeathWatch manual, the Basic skill allow you to do a skill check without penality (excluding difficulties and such).
If you don't have the basic skill, you roll the dice with half the valure of the corresponding characteristic.

I've no idea what the Trained stands for then, since when you buy for example dodge for 2 times, you get that +10/+20.

 

According to Black Cursade, Table 3-1: Skill Rank at page 92, there are 4 different ranks for the skills.

One(Known) - Equivalent of the Basic of DeathWatch, you do not suffer the -20 malus
Two(Trained) - +10 Bonus
Three(Experienced) - +20 Bonus
Four(Veteran) - +30 Bonus

So in short … what the hell?

I'm really confused how the game system, being the same for the whole 40k game range is either so bugged or different.

Can someone enlight me a little on how should I follow the rules?



#2 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,008 posts

Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:45 AM

The rules systems are actually considerably different.

Black Crusade with its 110% Parry and Dodge chances lol



#3 ExGemini

ExGemini

    Member

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:20 AM

bogi_khaosa said:

The rules systems are actually considerably different.

Black Crusade with its 110% Parry and Dodge chances lol

That's why I'm quite perplexed



#4 bogi_khaosa

bogi_khaosa

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,008 posts

Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:09 PM

There's no reason for perplexity. The two games have different rules, plain and simple.



#5 ExGemini

ExGemini

    Member

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:26 PM

bogi_khaosa said:

There's no reason for perplexity. The two games have different rules, plain and simple.

 

Can you at least explain to me the difference between Basic and Trained then?



#6 Amaimon

Amaimon

    Member

  • Members
  • 237 posts

Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:05 AM

Basic skill means you can test that skill but at half you characteristic value eg dodge with Ag 40 - you test at 20 to succesfully dodge (in BC there are no basic skills, but there are some that can be used untrained at -20 penalty, not halved)

Trained skill means you can test it at your full characteristic without penalty, so doge at 40. The same is true for BC. 

There is no +30 in Deathwatch, as is the case of BC, instead, you can get talented (skill) which effectively works as +10 to target skill. 

Deathwatch and BC are different systems. Read the chapter in BC, about those differences. Then read the rules of BC and deathwatch. 



#7 herichimo

herichimo

    Member

  • Members
  • 822 posts

Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:18 AM

First off there are 2 types of skills:
Basic
Advanced

There are 4 levels of skills:
Untrained: You have not purchased any advance for the skill
Trained: You have purchased the advance for the skill
Expert (+10) mastery: You have purchased the 'Skill (+10)' advance for the skill
Master (+20) mastery: You have purchased the 'Skill (+20)' advance for the skill
I guess BC has a third level of mastery?

Finally there is a talent called 'Talented (skill)' which you gives you a +10 to all tests for that skill.

 

First I'll cover Basic skills
A basic skill is such a simple skill you MAY use the skill even if it is UNTRAINED, but the skill test is at HALF of the skill's characteristic.
You DO NOT halve modifiers when using an UNTRAINED Basic skill, only the associated characteristic.
If a basic skill is TRAINED then it is used normally at FULL characteristic

Second I'll cover Advanced skills
An Advanced skill is pretty complicated, it may require extensive training or specific knowledge for instance, you MAY NOT use an advanced skill if it is UNTRAINED and any tests you have to take with an UNTRAINED Advanced skill AUTOMATICALLY FAIL.
Once an Advanced skill becomes TRAINED it functions as a normal skill.

The mastery levels ('Skill (+10)' and 'Skill (+20)') work by INCREASING your characteristic associated with that skill when taking tests for that skill. A character with Agility 20 and Dodge (+10) tests to Dodge on a 30 (not a 20).
Mastery levels ARE NOT bonuses to the skill test. Therefore mastery levels CAN be combined with the bonus cap. If the previous example took a +60 dodge test he would need to roll under a 90 (Dodge characteristic of 30 +60). If mastery levels were bonuses then the character would have to roll under an 80 instead.
You CAN NOT purchase masteries for UNTRAINED Basic skills, so don't worry about that.
The 'Skill (+20)' replaces the 'Skill (+10), they do not add together.

The 'Talented (Skill)' talent provides a +10 MODIFIER to skill rolls made with the skill. This MODIFIER IS combined and limited by the modifier caps. Using the previous example again: The character now has 'Talented (Dodge)'. If he takes a +60 test he will need to roll under 90, NOT 100 as the +10 modifier from talented cannot raise the modifier cap above +60. Although it can negate negative modifiers and improve positive modifiersin the same way normal test modifiers do (the 'talented' +10 bonus will decrease a -20 penalty to a -10 and increase a +50 to +60 for instance).
You can have 'Talented (Skill)' and not have any masteries. But lunike masteries, you CAN have Talented for UNTRAINED Basic skills IF your advance table allows you to purchase it without its associated skill as a prerequisite.



#8 ExGemini

ExGemini

    Member

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:27 AM

herichimo said:

First off there are 2 types of skills:
Basic
Advanced

There are 4 levels of skills:
Untrained: You have not purchased any advance for the skill
Trained: You have purchased the advance for the skill
Expert (+10) mastery: You have purchased the 'Skill (+10)' advance for the skill
Master (+20) mastery: You have purchased the 'Skill (+20)' advance for the skill
I guess BC has a third level of mastery?

Finally there is a talent called 'Talented (skill)' which you gives you a +10 to all tests for that skill.

 

First I'll cover Basic skills
A basic skill is such a simple skill you MAY use the skill even if it is UNTRAINED, but the skill test is at HALF of the skill's characteristic.
You DO NOT halve modifiers when using an UNTRAINED Basic skill, only the associated characteristic.
If a basic skill is TRAINED then it is used normally at FULL characteristic

Second I'll cover Advanced skills
An Advanced skill is pretty complicated, it may require extensive training or specific knowledge for instance, you MAY NOT use an advanced skill if it is UNTRAINED and any tests you have to take with an UNTRAINED Advanced skill AUTOMATICALLY FAIL.
Once an Advanced skill becomes TRAINED it functions as a normal skill.

The mastery levels ('Skill (+10)' and 'Skill (+20)') work by INCREASING your characteristic associated with that skill when taking tests for that skill. A character with Agility 20 and Dodge (+10) tests to Dodge on a 30 (not a 20).
Mastery levels ARE NOT bonuses to the skill test. Therefore mastery levels CAN be combined with the bonus cap. If the previous example took a +60 dodge test he would need to roll under a 90 (Dodge characteristic of 30 +60). If mastery levels were bonuses then the character would have to roll under an 80 instead.
You CAN NOT purchase masteries for UNTRAINED Basic skills, so don't worry about that.
The 'Skill (+20)' replaces the 'Skill (+10), they do not add together.

The 'Talented (Skill)' talent provides a +10 MODIFIER to skill rolls made with the skill. This MODIFIER IS combined and limited by the modifier caps. Using the previous example again: The character now has 'Talented (Dodge)'. If he takes a +60 test he will need to roll under 90, NOT 100 as the +10 modifier from talented cannot raise the modifier cap above +60. Although it can negate negative modifiers and improve positive modifiersin the same way normal test modifiers do (the 'talented' +10 bonus will decrease a -20 penalty to a -10 and increase a +50 to +60 for instance).
You can have 'Talented (Skill)' and not have any masteries. But lunike masteries, you CAN have Talented for UNTRAINED Basic skills IF your advance table allows you to purchase it without its associated skill as a prerequisite.

 

Okey so let me see if I got it right…

Basic Skill Dodge for a starting space marine.
This means that to dodge something he has to roll under his agility (in this case 55) halved down (27).
If that marine picks up the Dodge skill at rank 1 in the general space marine skill chart, he pays 200xp and dodge becomes trained
Trained = He takes dodge tests at full agility (55)

The rest is quite clear, all the bonus derived by the +10/+20/Mastery/Talented :)

 

Since I'm here to ask, I'm looking at the Characters sheet for DeathWatch and I see that some skills have been marked down as trained already  but the basic skill slot is not checked out.
For example Literacy.
Others instead has both slots marked down, for example Silent Move.

The question is: Do I need to buy the basic skill when on the sheet is already marked the trained that comes with the basic character?



#9 ExGemini

ExGemini

    Member

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:35 AM

Amaimon said:

Basic skill means you can test that skill but at half you characteristic value eg dodge with Ag 40 - you test at 20 to succesfully dodge (in BC there are no basic skills, but there are some that can be used untrained at -20 penalty, not halved)

Trained skill means you can test it at your full characteristic without penalty, so doge at 40. The same is true for BC. 

There is no +30 in Deathwatch, as is the case of BC, instead, you can get talented (skill) which effectively works as +10 to target skill. 

Deathwatch and BC are different systems. Read the chapter in BC, about those differences. Then read the rules of BC and deathwatch. 

I will give that BC's chapter a reading to better understand :)



#10 herichimo

herichimo

    Member

  • Members
  • 822 posts

Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

ExGemini said:

 

herichimo said:

Okey so let me see if I got it right…

Basic Skill Dodge for a starting space marine.
This means that to dodge something he has to roll under his agility (in this case 55) halved down (27).
If that marine picks up the Dodge skill at rank 1 in the general space marine skill chart, he pays 200xp and dodge becomes trained
Trained = He takes dodge tests at full agility (55)

The rest is quite clear, all the bonus derived by the +10/+20/Mastery/Talented :)

 

Since I'm here to ask, I'm looking at the Characters sheet for DeathWatch and I see that some skills have been marked down as trained already  but the basic skill slot is not checked out.
For example Literacy.
Others instead has both slots marked down, for example Silent Move.

The question is: Do I need to buy the basic skill when on the sheet is already marked the trained that comes with the basic character?

 

 

You have the basics of Basic skills correct.

I'll note though, Dodge was just an example I used for our fictitious example character. Space Marines begin the game with dodge already trained (you still had the right idea).

Literacy is an Advanced skill, not a Basic skill. Since it is an Advanced skill you can not take tests with lieracy UNLESS you have the skill TRAINED.

Basic isn't a level you have to buy. The check slots on the character sheet are there just to help remind you which skills are Basic skills. You can't buy a 'basic level' of skills. A skill is either basic or it is advanced. Basic skills can be used (at half characteristics) if you haven't purchased its advance, Advanced skills can not.

The character sheet has a few mistakes on it, there are a few skills not marked correctly for a starting character. Take a look at the starting skills in the character creation section of the book to figure out which skills should be marked as trained.



#11 ExGemini

ExGemini

    Member

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:02 AM

herichimo said:

ExGemini said:

 

herichimo said:

Okey so let me see if I got it right…

Basic Skill Dodge for a starting space marine.
This means that to dodge something he has to roll under his agility (in this case 55) halved down (27).
If that marine picks up the Dodge skill at rank 1 in the general space marine skill chart, he pays 200xp and dodge becomes trained
Trained = He takes dodge tests at full agility (55)

The rest is quite clear, all the bonus derived by the +10/+20/Mastery/Talented :)

 

Since I'm here to ask, I'm looking at the Characters sheet for DeathWatch and I see that some skills have been marked down as trained already  but the basic skill slot is not checked out.
For example Literacy.
Others instead has both slots marked down, for example Silent Move.

The question is: Do I need to buy the basic skill when on the sheet is already marked the trained that comes with the basic character?

 

 

You have the basics of Basic skills correct.

I'll note though, Dodge was just an example I used for our fictitious example character. Space Marines begin the game with dodge already trained (you still had the right idea).

Literacy is an Advanced skill, not a Basic skill. Since it is an Advanced skill you can not take tests with lieracy UNLESS you have the skill TRAINED.

Basic isn't a level you have to buy. The check slots on the character sheet are there just to help remind you which skills are Basic skills. You can't buy a 'basic level' of skills. A skill is either basic or it is advanced. Basic skills can be used (at half characteristics) if you haven't purchased its advance, Advanced skills can not.

The character sheet has a few mistakes on it, there are a few skills not marked correctly for a starting character. Take a look at the starting skills in the character creation section of the book to figure out which skills should be marked as trained.

 

Wait, wait wait…

I think I got confused by reading the character sheet because I saw some basic marks and some trained ones.

Let me see if I got it right:

A basic skill means that if you don't have it, you can still test by half the characteristic value.
Since a space marine does have Dodge as default, he doesn't need to a) buy it and b) he already roll with full agility, not half, corrent?

The Trained skills marked on the character sheet are the one that the space marine already owns and he doesn't need to buy them again to fill the basic one.

I though that you had to buy them for each step, silly me! :(



#12 herichimo

herichimo

    Member

  • Members
  • 822 posts

Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:12 AM

Looks like you got it.

Just be sure to read the starting skills in character creation chapter of the rulebook. There are a couple of skills on the character sheet not marked as trained yet (dodge is one of them) although they should be.

Read up on the starting skills in the book and mark the skills on the sheet which should already be marked.



#13 kjakan

kjakan

    Member

  • Members
  • 161 posts

Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:52 AM

"Malus"?

English is not my first language, but I was under the impression that one typically uses "penalty" when indicating a modifier with a negative influence.

-K



#14 Aridia 97th

Aridia 97th

    Member

  • Members
  • 68 posts

Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:52 PM

That does help explain it.  You're right, the character sheet has a flaw.  The advanced skills shouldn't have the basic box at all.  That's always had me confused.



#15 Kasatka

Kasatka

    Member

  • Members
  • 877 posts

Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:20 AM

kjakan said:

"Malus"?

English is not my first language, but I was under the impression that one typically uses "penalty" when indicating a modifier with a negative influence.

-K

Indeed penalty is the more applicable term here. Bonus/Malus is latin for Good/Bad which is where a lot of non-English natives get it from. It suffices though!


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS