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Non-combat damage and action chain (Maranith case)


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#1 Miki

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:55 PM

Hi guys,

 

I have sveral questions concerning non-combat damage and actions playing in response to this kind of damage. To illustrate my case, here is the following situation:

 

SITUATION:

I am playing Chaos. My opponent is playing Dark Elves.

In his capital my opponent already has one copy of: (i) Maranith, (ii) Temple of Spite, (iii) Tower of Oblivion. Temple of Spite has already 2 resources on it whereas Tower of Oblivion has already 3 resources on it.

It is my turn and I want to destroy Maranith by playing "Flames of Tzeentch". After having paid 3 resources for Flames of Tzeentch me and my opponent agree that Maranith is going to die. BUT BEFORE HE DIES, I have some questions:

 

QUESTION 1:

Does Maranith enters the discard pile immediately after playing Flames of Tzeentch or can Maranith trigger his Action before dmg is assigned and immediately applied to him (according to the rules specified in FAQ 1.9 p.8, bottom of 1st column, reading: "Outside of combat, some card effects also deal damage to units or to a player’s capital. When these effects resolve, the damage is applied as soon as it is assigned before any other actions can be taken.")? I assume that Maranith can use his Action in response to Flames of Tzeentch, but I would be grateful if you could confirm that.

 

QUESTION 2:

Assuming that in the said situation Maranith can trigger his Action in response to Flames of Tzeentch, how many times can he do that (remember there is a total of 5 resource tokens on both Temple of Spite [2 tokens] and Tower of Oblivion [3 tokens]). My guess is he can do it once only (i.e. he can spend only one resoruce token either from Temple of Spite or Tower of Oblivion) and then the effect of Flames of Tzeentch resolves, i.e. 3 dmg is assigned and immediately applied to Maranith. Am I correct?

 

Many thanks for answering my questions. I hope I managed to present the situation clearly.



#2 Mallumo

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:20 PM

Flames of Tzeentch will deal damage and destroy Maranith when it resolves. For now, all your opponent has done is start an action chain by announcing he is playing Flames (and paying its cost and choosing its target). It hasn't resolved yet. Instead, you have the opportunity to respond to his action with an action of your own, Maranith's in this case. This is point B 2.2 in the timing structure on pages 9 and 10 in the FAQ. So in response to his playing of Flames, you trigger Maranith's action once, paying for it by removing a token from either Black Ark.

 

Now it's your opponent's turn to respond / add an action to the chain again, we'll assume he passes on that. So it's your turn again to add an action to still the same chain. This will only stop if you both pass consecutively. You don't pass though, you trigger Maranith's action again. It doesn't have a trigger condition, no "once per phase/turn" limit, and you can still pay for it by removing a token from a Black Ark, so nothing's stopping you from using it multiple times. This, your opponent passing and you triggering the action, goes on until you have used up all five tokens, then you have to pass too. Now the chain resolves in reverse order (B 3 in the timing structure), so Maranith's action resolves five times, then Flames resolves and destroys him.

 

If it had been the other way around, if you had triggered Maranith's action and your opponent had responded with Flames, Maranith would have been destroyed earlier during the resolution of the chain, but his actions would still have resolved since once triggered, effects exist independently of their source.

 

The important part is that the actions all go on the same chain, that you trigger Maranith's action before Flames has resolved. If you both pass after your opponent has declared his playing of Flames, Maranith gets destroyed and you won't have another opportunity to use his action.



#3 Miki

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:05 PM

OK got it. Thank you for explanation.

So in order to prevent Maranith from using his action 5 times before he dies, the player playing Flames would need to play for example Jealous Eyes after the first response action of Maranith, right?



#4 Teokrata

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:17 AM

Miki said:

 

OK got it. Thank you for explanation.

So in order to prevent Maranith from using his action 5 times before he dies, the player playing Flames would need to play for example Jealous Eyes after the first response action of Maranith, right?

 

 

Yes, Eyes are the best option for destro, also cards like Cube of Darkness for order. You can also "remove" Maranith with some Forced Effect, like Beastman Incursion, but He always can response to playing such card, so… it often will be painful ;-) That makes Maranith so good ;-) I like to play him ;-)






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