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A Matter of Inconvenience


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#1 Triple A

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:44 AM

In a game played yesterday, one of my opponents chose the Warlock (random selection).  Everyone else groaned, because we all know that particular player loves to spell-cycle, and he's usually quite good at it.

It started me thinking that I'd like to have some way to restrict other players, such as a Curse that could prevent someone from casting spells, or only allow them to move in a clockwise direction, or miss a turn if they land in the woods, or only be able to use their starting values in battle / psychic combat, until they were able to complete some action and remove the Curse.  It would function similar to a Quest, but completing a task would remove a restriction rather than gain a reward.  We all know that characters are not equal, and the ability to negate some of those inherent advantages (at least temporarily) might add a new fun element to the game.

A separate Curse deck would be ideal, and maybe could even be tied into the long anticipated Dark Fate concept (pay a Dark Fate to force someone to draw from the Curse deck!).  I'd be in heaven if the 4th corner was a Swamp, filled with dark magic including a Curse deck.     



#2 0beron

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:26 AM

Triple "A" said:

In a game played yesterday, one of my opponents chose the Warlock (random selection).  Everyone else groaned, because we all know that particular player loves to spell-cycle, and he's usually quite good at it.

It started me thinking that I'd like to have some way to restrict other players, such as a Curse that could prevent someone from casting spells, or only allow them to move in a clockwise direction, or miss a turn if they land in the woods, or only be able to use their starting values in battle / psychic combat, until they were able to complete some action and remove the Curse.  It would function similar to a Quest, but completing a task would remove a restriction rather than gain a reward.  We all know that characters are not equal, and the ability to negate some of those inherent advantages (at least temporarily) might add a new fun element to the game.

A separate Curse deck would be ideal, and maybe could even be tied into the long anticipated Dark Fate concept (pay a Dark Fate to force someone to draw from the Curse deck!).  I'd be in heaven if the 4th corner was a Swamp, filled with dark magic including a Curse deck.     

  I LOVE this idea!  A curse deck. Sounds like an expansion to the Blood Moon expansion, lol, but seriously, this is rather interesting concept; forcing someone to only go one direction - hey how about a curse that forces you to find or do something in another region (Dungeon, etc.).

In Andre Norton's Witch World series (Novels) they have the concept of a geas, which is some sort of oath-sworn quest (some with possible curse-ish factors) where you are sworn to perform X or whatever and until you do, something else won't happen, or regretably will…



#3 Velhart

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:35 AM

The Ability from the Warlock is the only good ability that he has.

Spell cycling, and casting spells is a part of Talisman:)

If the spell deck has a lot of counterspells, then it would be very boring i think.

But i agree that it would be nice to add some adventure cards, that prevent spell casting, if you stand on that space, or during a event, that takes 2 or 3 rounds.

 

Anyway, If the City comes out, then all characters can become a spell caster:)

 

 



#4 JCHendee

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:28 AM

A curse deck might be interesting, though how curses would/could be implemented might need more thought. In addition, there should be a way to remove curses if they don't have a built in timer or conditions for fulfillment. Perhaps the most obvious would be visiting the Chapel or Graveyard (depending on Alignment), and then removing the curse is an additional option there; if you choose to remove the curse, you can't use other options on the space.

As to a geas, that might be fun as well if it were more toward the original concept - a magical compulsion to accomplish something particular to the exclusion of all else, and any attempt to do otherwise has a negative effect upon the victim directly… upto and including death. Attaching a geas to a "quest" card is perhaps the most obvious mechanic for Talisman… and the completion of the quest only removes the geas and does not offer the typical reward. The typical geas is more like a mental illness of obsession to the extreme, where one's health begins to fail the more one tries to resist it. But this might not be easily or conveniently adaptable to Talisman, particularly in governing when a character is truly resisting the geas; probable too complicated for a game with limited character attributes and a random movement model.

A curse deck for say the Cursed Glade would be another option, however it would just be another reason for characters to avoid that space… which already has mechanics problems where character interaction is concerned. It would need some kind of filter system of its own, such as some cards being a null or zero effect… or even one or two chances to remove a curse. Or more simply, since it is a null magic zone, if one lands there while "Cursed," one can discard that curse; if one lands there without a curse, one must draw from the deck. This would certainly be more interesting than that mechanics glitchy space as it is.

However, the same deck could be accessed by other mechanics, such as a new Curse to be added to the Spells deck where you can force another character to draw form the Curse deck. Or maybe even the chance to curse another player via certain "pray" mechanics throughout the game. Plenty of possibilities for distributing curses.



#5 0beron

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:56 AM

Your ideas are very well thought out. You probably know more about geas than I do!

I think your idea about removing being a trip to the Graveyard or Chapel and query "where do neutrals go?" Perhaps it would be better to have the curse card indicate that a visit to either Mystic or Enchantress?

Another thought would be, the removal of a curse would/could be the acceptance of the geas we're talking about.  Accept this obsession/quest or suffer this curse until ___.

  So there could be more than one type of curse; one that can time out (or you can go to the curse-removing place or person) or you trade the curse for a geas, if the curse cannot be released any other way.



#6 JCHendee

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:41 PM

0beron said:

 

I think your idea about removing being a trip to the Graveyard or Chapel and query "where do neutrals go?" Perhaps it would be better to have the curse card indicate that a visit to either Mystic or Enchantress?

 

 

Neutrals can enter either the Graveyard or Chapel, so they have two options; they simply can't do much else there.  As to visiting the Mystic or Enchantress, that would work too… except the inhabitants there wouldn't want a curse walked in among them. But also, a curse is enough of hobbling without someone having to face a random roll on top of.  That's too much for my tastes.

0beron said:

 

Another thought would be, the removal of a curse would/could be the acceptance of the geas we're talking about.  Accept this obsession/quest or suffer this curse until ___.

 

 

I could see that, but from experience, I'm betting most other players wouldn't want that. This would also require separate "geas" and "curse" decks.  That's probably a bit much for an addon system that is (1) wholly deficit oriented, and (2) isn't about the actually objective(s) of the game. Overall, a classical or modern interpretation of a geas still works as a curse card; it is a type of curse, for "curse" is just a generic word for any type of magical, mystical onus of deficit placed on a target. 

There might be several types of geas put into the curse deck. The simpliest form would be a target space the character has to go to… and it must always move in the direction of that space by the shortest route through the board. On any move clearly contrary to such a path, it must discard a life or a fate (as an example).

Likely any "destination" based geas should not be a space where this kind of "curse" could be removed. That way, if the player sees it can reach a negation space, it has to judge whether or not to pay the price for defying the geas to do so (reaching either the Graveyard or Chapel), or it must hope to get to the target space for the geas to be free of it. For that matter, having to reach the Cursed Glade would be an excellent choice for a geas.

Another approach, though hinky, might be the use of Quest Cards.  But when played on a character as a curse, that character must always move toward an opportunity to fulfill the quest, or it must lose a life or a fate. When the quest is completed, it gains no reward… just the removal of the curse (geas).

 But again, even this notion using cards already available is probably too complicated for most players.



#7 talismanisland

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:02 PM

Quite a nice bunch of ideas here. I like the ideas of a Curse deck of some sort, and it can be as dark or quirky as one would like.

It opens up a whole range of if/but or if/when types of Blessing/Curse too, like "You gain +1 in battle, but you must always take a life as a reward".

 Don't mind me! Just thinking out loud!


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#8 Triple A

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:34 AM

Yeah, my mind has been busy coming up with various curses.  It would allow for a great variety of effects such as.

 

All stand-offs are treated as a loss

Unable to defeat Sentinel, no matter your strength

After moving and drawing cards as normal, any creatures in adjoining spaces will move to your space.

You cannoy pray.

You are allergic to horses

You need to pay 2 Fate to alter dice.

 

Lots of fun ideas to mess with your opponent.  Maybe characters can have more than 1 active curse at a time? 

 

I like the idea of using the Cursed Glade somehow (maybe best way to remove curse, although it shouldn't be too hard - more of an annoyance than a truly difficult task), and certainly various Adventure / Spell Cards could be created that would interact with the Curse Deck.

If forced to draw a Curse card for yourself, you must take the top card.  But if taking a Curse card to be played on others, you look at the top three and decide which one to keep.

 



#9 0beron

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:36 AM

Triple "A" said:

Yeah, my mind has been busy coming up with various curses.  It would allow for a great variety of effects such as.

 

All stand-offs are treated as a loss

Unable to defeat Sentinel, no matter your strength

After moving and drawing cards as normal, any creatures in adjoining spaces will move to your space.

You cannoy pray.

You are allergic to horses

You need to pay 2 Fate to alter dice.

 

Lots of fun ideas to mess with your opponent.  Maybe characters can have more than 1 active curse at a time? 

 

I like the idea of using the Cursed Glade somehow (maybe best way to remove curse, although it shouldn't be too hard - more of an annoyance than a truly difficult task), and certainly various Adventure / Spell Cards could be created that would interact with the Curse Deck.

If forced to draw a Curse card for yourself, you must take the top card.  But if taking a Curse card to be played on others, you look at the top three and decide which one to keep.

 

  All of you have very cool ideas. Some are more easily usable, but the others have kernels of something that can be polished up.

 To the Cursed Glade, perhaps removal of the curse means those going there don't encounter, but must spend at least 2, maybe 3 turns there to remove the curse. In other words if you carry a curse card, you can enter the space without drawing, but must remain X turns?  Alternatively, maybe a cursed card carrier must draw extra card(s) there and only keep enemy cards?

In general, if there is a "Curse' deck, I agree that 'Geas' related/curses should go there too, rather than a separate deck.

  Of course, perhaps, the simplest way to create 'Geas' for the game would be event card that says something like Your Warlock Quest is modified, per "must move directly to the quest, forfeit 1 ___ if you cannot". 

 Does that make sense in the game?



#10 JCHendee

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

The creative juices are flowing!  But one thing does need to be considered… in what way(s) does one get cursed? Yeah, for some reason this little notion is now stuck in my head, though Talisman is the intermission game around my place inbetween nights of Runebound and Tales of the Arabian Nights. So here goes with some new notions mixed with some from others…

Removing a Curse

The following would apply to a curse directly on a character or on an object, follower, or spell.

  • Chapel or Graveyard: Choose to discard one curse as your only option of choice there.
  • Cursed Glade: Miss 1 turn to discard one curse.
  • Temple: Instead of rolling for a temple result, roll 2 dice below your current Craft. If you succed, discard one curse.
  • "Wish": If you encounter any standard game card that offers you a "wish," you may discard one curse in place of choosing any other offered reward.

Becoming Cursed

I could see some additional cards for certain standard decks that individual groups could decide whether to use or not, one by one. That is one way for a curse to enter the game. Instead of the curse being on such cards, the affected player/character draws from the curse deck. So the standard cards are….

  • Adventure: Event: Draw a Curse.
  • Adventure: Place: Profane Shrine: Any character landing here must roll a die below Craft or draw a curse.
  • Adventure: Spirit: Malevolent Ghost: Craft 5: If you are defeated in Psychic Combat, do not lose a Life. Instead, draw one curse.
  • Adventure: Undead: JuJu Zombie: Strength 5: If you are defeated in Battle, lose a Life and draw one curse. If you defeat it, you may discard one curse.
  • Adventure: Object: Cursed Trinket: Draw a Curse and place it on this Object. So long as you have it, you suffer the curse. If you sell or trade the trinket, you may discard the curse, this includes to the Alchemist. If you defeat a character in combat, you may force it to take the cursed object instead of any victory reward.
  • Spell: Foul Magic: Draw another Spell and draw a Curse to place with it. If you cast that spell, you release the curse upon yourself. You may not choose to discard the spell to be rid of the curse.
  • Spell: Curse: Force on character in your Region to draw a curse.
  • Spell: Cursed Land: Cast on any draw space in your Region. Any character landing on this space discards this card and draws a curse.
  • Spell: Geas: Cast on any character in your Region and then Pick one draw space in the inner or outer region. The victim must always move toward that space by the shortest route until landing on the space to discard the geas. If the character willfully moves away from the target space, it must discard a Life or a Fate.)
  • Spell: Counter Curse:
  • Highlands, Dungeon, etc.: as for Adventure cards (but thematically appropriate).

Another option is by effect upon a board space, though this might be undesireable to some groups. As said above, this would be list of board based trigger rules, and each group could pick an choose which ones to use. The most obvious space is of course the Cursed Glade, but something might be rigged for other spaces as options.

  • Cursed Glade: (1) Draw a curse when you land here, or (2) roll a die below your Craft or you must draw a curse.
  • Runes: (1) If you are defeated by a Spirit in Psychic Combat draw a curse, or (2) if your defeated by a Spirit, roll a die below your craft or draw a curse.
  • Ruins: ???
  • Warlock's Cave: If you land here with an incomplete quest, roll a die; on 1, 2, or 3, draw a curse.
  • Chapel: if your are Evil and land here, lose 1 Life or draw a curse.
  • Graveyard: If you are Good and land here, lose 1 Life or draw a curse.

Curse Cards

Some various labelled notions from me and as listed by others…

  • Aquaphobia (Fear of Water): You may not cross water, even by a bridge or as mentioned on an adventure card in play or that you draw. If you must do so, your turn immediately ends.
  • Timidity: if your roll a draw in Battle or Psychic Combat, you lose the combat instead.
  • Counter-Curse: You may discard one curse on yourself or remove a curse from one other character in your Region.
  • Scent of Blood: After your move and before you draw any cards, all Enemies in adjecent spaces in your Region move to your space.
  • Disavowed: You may not pray.
  • Equinophobia (Fear of Horses/Equines): While you have a Horse, Mules, Horse & Cart, or other equine, you take -1 in combat and on all rolls against Strength or Craft. You may not "ride."
  • Acrophobia (Fear of Heights): You may not land on the Crags, enter the Highlands, or enter the Inner region; if you must do so to move, your turn immediately ends.
  • Achluophobia (Fear of Darkness): You may not enter the Dungeon, the Graveyard, or the Mines; if you must do so to move, your turn immediately ends.
  • Maniomania: You may not evade or use armor in Battle. You must always attack any character in a space you land on.
  • Hoarding: You may not discard by choice any Object your acquire/have, but you may sell such or have them taken from you.
  • Agrophobia (Fear of Open Places): You may not land in the Plains, Desert, or Oasis. If you must do so to move, your turn immediately ends.
  • Gephyrophobia (Fear of Bridges… or maybe Fear of Trolls?): You may not cross any bridge on the board; you take -2 in combat against all Trolls.

There are lots more curses possible based on lists of phobias… but I'll pause here. If this project still interests enough people, perhaps I can eventually make a template for curse cards. A standard pack of cards could be developed, along with a set of rules cards as a checklist for people to choose the rules options they prefer.  In addition, I could also have Jon New add the template to the Talisman plugin for Strange Eons at a later time, and people could create their own curses.

That's all from me for now, as my work schedule is backing up again.

 

 



#11 Triple A

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:27 PM

There are some awesome ideas here.

 

How do we get FFG on board?



#12 0beron

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:43 PM

Triple "A" said:

There are some awesome ideas here.

 

How do we get FFG on board?

Yes indeed, our friend JCHendee is a major brain trust! Seems that going for Home Brew or Talisman Island is an option…

but I think talking here can help. In the last many weeks after the Indy Con announcement with box cover art, to the official announcement, I know I was throwing out stuff left and right about how the City should could would be. But obviously the time is waaaay before.

So "Curses, Hexes and Obsessions (GEAS)" should be a future, small expansion that we should earnestly lobby for.

I leave it to the more logical and game-minded folks to actually envision how it would work. My own ideas are just wild and wooley and probably only (if at all) inspire some tweaks or better thought out schemes.

  I think FFG folks are obviously reading this forum, so if any of these ideas are crafted well enough and actually interesting (I think curses would be, if tied in so well as some of you have thought out).

  And I'm learning a lot from you all too. To me, it seemed obvious to have ways to tie board or other expansions into the other expansions (secret passages that take you from the Castle to the Dungeon Library, or shouldn't that Dungeon Hall of Darkness take you somewhere… like the Lost City in the Highlands? Shouldn't the mine in the Highlands connect to the mine on the inner region?).

  But, not everyone can or will buy each expansion. So I get it, each expansion does need to stand alone, with the main set. Still…

So, as I consider my own ideas to throw out, I will try to be briefer and clearer - and to look at the big picture of how its got to fit together.

 I'll be throwing out a thought about the next corner, whether it be Forest/Woodlands, Village-and-countryside, and how I think it should sorta have opposite things/qualities from the City board.



#13 JCHendee

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:48 AM

Much as I've seen notions / cards out of the T-fan community pop up in commercial products for Talisman, I think a curse deck might be a longshot for such. Even so, I have no interest in seeking/encouraging that. Most commercial expansions for T have been of larger scope, scale, and focus with multiple components focused to theme. A curse deck by itself wouldn't fit that paradigm. And even so, it shouldn't stop concern us in playing around with the notion here rather than looking to have it taken over by FFG.



#14 0beron

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:58 AM

JCHendee said:

Much as I've seen notions / cards out of the T-fan community pop up in commercial products for Talisman, I think a curse deck might be a longshot for such. Even so, I have no interest in seeking/encouraging that. Most commercial expansions for T have been of larger scope, scale, and focus with multiple components focused to theme. A curse deck by itself wouldn't fit that paradigm. And even so, it shouldn't stop concern us in playing around with the notion here rather than looking to have it taken over by FFG.

I've loved some of the fan based things I've seen you and others do, on Talisman Island. Having said that I'm probably never going to take use of these wonderful things. I'm thrilled to read and look at the pictures, but I'm mostly going to keep with "official" expansions…

 

and of course never, ever stop dreaming of things I might like to see, or speculate about in the game!  Thanks for all your contributions to this forum and Talisman.



#15 Triple A

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:34 PM

Don't worry JC, I'm not about to start a campaign to get FFG to produce a Curse Deck.

 

I like the idea, and will let it live in my imagination, but that's where it'll stay unless I get uncharacteristically creative and make my own deck.  But like Oberon, I tend to stick to the official releases.  



#16 0beron

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:58 PM

 I play (and live) with a purist who would never let me bring home brew things into the game, sadly. That's the main reason. But I am very intrigued and in awe of what some of you have done with the home brews.

You never know, sometimes a great idea just needs to resonate to the right/and-or/amount of people to finally take root.  Keep hope alive.

It's like Blood Moon, when we first were getting the previews I thought we could use a lot more undead (vamps in particular) but I find it balanced enough, though someone mentioned "expansions to the expansions" and why couldn't there be some other small set that works from that; "Secret of the Vampire's Tower", with expanded concepts for undeads or that part of the inner region. ?

Likewise Frost March could be tweaked in a new expansion, the Ice Queen strikes back! Who knew but she has found or recovered her control over Ice Giants or something…

Since I admitted I'm pretty pathetic with actually constructing game elements and mechanics, I'll just have to say I like fanciful ideas that I throw and throw and throw.

  Maybe one of them's got to stick?



#17 JCHendee

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 02:14 AM

Okay, I take the point folks.  No harm in hoping or even lobbying for something in some way.  I never meant to imply or infer that anyone shouldn't, but as a player of T since near 1E and on through 4ER (though I skipped 3E), I have watched what did and did not come to the game.  In that there is some hope, for along with resurrecting old stuff, FFG is dependable for bringing some new things to the game.

And don't be too much of a purest when it comes to what's official, though perhaps always wait to try something unofficial until you become a bit of an aficionado of the game. Admittedly there's a lot of fan made content, which can make it a bit much to paw through in trying to find something that truly appeals to you individually. But at least that by itself is a testament to the core of the game itself and its appeal. AND, in that, FFG has been very gracious and even openly supportive in ways of the T-fan "homebrew" community. They are one of the few game developers who have done so, and Jon New over at TalismanIsland.com has done MUCH in facilitating that for us.

Don't have time for much more on the "curses" topic; busy day today. But I may have a playful bit or two to share soon. At which point, I might even suggest bridging to a new topic thread in the homebrew subforum, if anyone is still interested in more discussion on that.






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