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Targ Burn Counters


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#1 flipperlord

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:50 AM

 Hi, I am curious as to what the best way to nullify burn cards (namely house Targaryen) is.  I am continuously getting beaten in long drawn out games against targ burn decks, and i am sick and tired of it. lol …. any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you  :)



#2 dcdennis

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:56 AM

 In for the answer. Id like to know too :)



#3 -Istaril

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:59 AM

That's a big question… 

The answers are many - and it depends on which burn cards you're suffering under. Attachments can offer some protection from burn effects like "Flame Kissed", but an attachment you might want to consider is "Flaming Sword", which makes you immune to strength reducing effects.

There are a few "Saves" that work against burn effects, like "Risen from the Sea" and "Moqorro" out of Greyjoy. 

Playing higher strength characters makes a huge difference, as does having a "Forgotten Plans" (or a strength boosting plot) to combat the inevitable "Threat from the North" turn. A deck like Wildlings has very little to fear from burn, as it has some big beefy characters that are very difficult to kill. 

Without tech-ing against burn specifically, keep in mind that burn typically requires many cards; draw engines, recursion engines, influence providers and gold providers, and by messing with any of the above you can probably douse the flames to the point where you can survive the burn. Burn feels harsh, but at best they're trading card-for-card with you and gaining a slight resource advantage in the process. Force them to use two cards to your one, beat them on intrigue, or put a stop on their recursion to find yourself slowly choking out the flames.

 



#4 Vaapad

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:28 PM

 Burn is also typically very slow (hence the long drawn out games out mentioned).  Rush can therefore be effective.  Also, maybe look at some "no attachments" characters - some of Targ's best burn comes from attachments (flame kissed, dragon skull, harried by dragons).  On the other hand, having an attachment sometimes acts as protection itself (hatchlings' feast for example).


"And for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

#5 flipperlord

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:55 PM

 One particular deck i play uses widow's watch and a lot of dupes… that deck in particular is very susceptible to burn.  While i understand that every deck has natural weaknesses, i would like to at least have a capable "answer" to the burn "question."



#6 Vaapad

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:05 PM

flipperlord said:

 One particular deck i play uses widow's watch and a lot of dupes… that deck in particular is very susceptible to burn.  While i understand that every deck has natural weaknesses, i would like to at least have a capable "answer" to the burn "question."

 

can you run that deck with high STR characters?  Or maybe many war crest characters and Randyl Tarly / power of arms?  As was mentioned above, burn can struggle against high STR characters because it's that much harder to reduce the STR to 0.


"And for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons."

#7 dcdennis

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:27 PM

 Cough*kingspavilion*cough



#8 dcdennis

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:28 PM

 Cough*kingspavilion*cough



#9 flipperlord

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:51 PM

dcdennis said:

 Cough*kingspavilion*cough

 

This may be a viable option…. i will give this some considerable thought and playtesting… many of my characters unavoidably have lower strength, so this may be the way to go…

 

thanks :)



#10 WWDrakey

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

flipperlord said:

 One particular deck i play uses widow's watch and a lot of dupes… that deck in particular is very susceptible to burn.  While i understand that every deck has natural weaknesses, i would like to at least have a capable "answer" to the burn "question."

One suggestion for this particular decktype:

Widow's Watch allows you to also search for copies of unique attachments… So run some decent positive unique attachments 2x each, preferably ones that fit your deck otherwise and maybe give you a bit of a strength bump. Then either dupe the attachment, or play one and keep the other on hold until the first copy gets discarded. A unique attachment can be irritating for even Targ to get rid of, since Dragon Thieves don't work on them. If you're running this out of Stark, then something like Summer/Needle should work, Crown of Winter might be too costly, but the immunity to events would even stop Incinerate (one of the few the others don't completely stop). 



#11 Endhill

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:54 PM

Dont forget though the dupes wont help with Targ cards like "flame kissed" as there effect is terminal. Im sure the Targ player has a good few terminal cards at there disposal.

I think "Kings Pavillion", stopping str reducing, higher str characters and attaching attachments is the way forward.

Be carefull with dupes as there still prone to terminal effects and you could see yourself losing x 3 character.

try not to play low str characters.

Did you say you play Stark, if so you have the option of the Boltons who have a load of characters that cannot have attachments and are high in strength.

You can also get to there influence locations that they need to kneel a lot with "frozen solid" and "freezing rain".

Plots wise, "Power of Blood", "Threat from the North" spring to mind.



#12 dcdennis

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:50 AM

 Flame kissed only gives the minus two if the card has no other attachments. That is what people are referring to.



#13 Swirek

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:01 AM

-Istaril said:


There are a few "Saves" that work against burn effects, like "Risen from the Sea" and "Moqorro" out of Greyjoy. 
 

 

Small clarification here. Indeed "Moqorro" will work however 'Risen from the Sea' won't.

'Risen from the Sea' doesn't work agains burn effects as they are usually treminal effects and you can't even attempt a save against such effect if it doesn't remove a treminal effect at the same time. Unfortunatelly second part of 'Risen .." effect is dependant on successful save which in this case will never happen.



#14 ktom

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:23 AM

Swirek said:

Small clarification here. Indeed "Moqorro" will work however 'Risen from the Sea' won't.

'Risen from the Sea' doesn't work agains burn effects as they are usually treminal effects and you can't even attempt a save against such effect if it doesn't remove a treminal effect at the same time. Unfortunatelly second part of 'Risen .." effect is dependant on successful save which in this case will never happen.

This is incorrect. The second part ("attach, +1 STR") is still part of the resolution of the overall save effect. It will resolve before any "kill/discard at 0" terminal effect "reasserts" itself. The "then" part just makes the "attach, +1 STR" conditional upon the save; it does not change the timing of the event and allow passives between the two effects. Risen from the Sea is pretty much the original save from burn card.



#15 Bomb

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:25 AM

Swirek said:

 

Small clarification here. Indeed "Moqorro" will work however 'Risen from the Sea' won't.

'Risen from the Sea' doesn't work agains burn effects as they are usually treminal effects and you can't even attempt a save against such effect if it doesn't remove a treminal effect at the same time. Unfortunatelly second part of 'Risen .." effect is dependant on successful save which in this case will never happen.

That is completely false.  Risen from the Sea will work because it can remove the terminal effect with it's "then" effect.  The reason it can be attempted is because after the Save resolves completely, the terminal effect will then be removed.  That is of course the character is not "No attachments" or isn't burned so bad the +1 STR bonus won't be of an increase to raise their STR above 0 at the time.



#16 dcdennis

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:56 AM

 hehe, double pwnd



#17 Endhill

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:59 AM

 

dcdennis said:

 Flame kissed only gives the minus two if the card has no other attachments. That is what people are referring to.

They are referring to Targ Burn in general and I was just highlighting the fact dupes wont save you against FK as its a terminal effect.

Read up terminal effects dennis. Its worth knowing mate.

Thanks



#18 dcdennis

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:08 AM

Endhill said:

 

dcdennis said:

 

 Flame kissed only gives the minus two if the card has no other attachments. That is what people are referring to.

 

 

They are referring to Targ Burn in general and I was just highlighting the fact dupes wont save you against FK as its a terminal effect.

Read up terminal effects dennis. Its worth knowing mate.

Thanks

why exactly are you calling me out here? what did I say that was incorrect? Oh that's right, NOTHING. 



#19 Danigral

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:43 AM

dcdennis said:

Endhill said:

 

 

dcdennis said:

 

 Flame kissed only gives the minus two if the card has no other attachments. That is what people are referring to.

 

 

They are referring to Targ Burn in general and I was just highlighting the fact dupes wont save you against FK as its a terminal effect.

Read up terminal effects dennis. Its worth knowing mate.

Thanks

 

 

why exactly are you calling me out here? what did I say that was incorrect? Oh that's right, NOTHING. 

What dennis was trying to say so lovingly, is that FK has the text "if attached character has no other attachments" which is something I know I personally overlooked when I was a new player. So a card like Risen from the Sea will actually not only save and give +1 STR, it will remove the burn and terminal effect from FK as well when RftS is attached. If you try to use FK on a character with attachments, it is a wasted card until you can discard the other attachment(s).



#20 Swirek

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:45 AM

ktom said:

 

Swirek said:

Small clarification here. Indeed "Moqorro" will work however 'Risen from the Sea' won't.

 

'Risen from the Sea' doesn't work agains burn effects as they are usually treminal effects and you can't even attempt a save against such effect if it doesn't remove a treminal effect at the same time. Unfortunatelly second part of 'Risen .." effect is dependant on successful save which in this case will never happen.

This is incorrect. The second part ("attach, +1 STR") is still part of the resolution of the overall save effect. It will resolve before any "kill/discard at 0" terminal effect "reasserts" itself. The "then" part just makes the "attach, +1 STR" conditional upon the save; it does not change the timing of the event and allow passives between the two effects. Risen from the Sea is pretty much the original save from burn card. 

 

 

It feels natural that 'Risen from the Sea' is/was a card designed as a save against burn, however rullings from the FAQ doesn't necessarry make it easier to interpret it that way

Two quotes from the latest FAQ:

(3.20) Terminal Effects

A card cannot be saved from a terminal effect
unless that saving effect also removes it from
the terminal state.

(4.9) The word "then"

If a card has multiple effects, all effects on the
card are resolved, if possible, independently
of whether any other effects of the card are
successful, with the following important
exception:

If a card uses the word "then," then the
preceding effect must have been resolved
successfully for the subsequent dependent
effect to be resolved.

According to 4.9 'Risen from the Sea' is a card with two effects where the second one is only dependent upon first one successful resolution. But according to 3.20 you need to have a single effect that also removes the card from the terminal effect.

Even if you think of any other interpretation you are ending in a loop where snake is eating its own tail






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