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#1 LETE

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:46 AM

Hi:

 

I bet the Edge of the Empire Beginners Game includes some funky SW dice.  Could it be possible for FFG to sell the dice separately for us, betatesters?

 

 

L



#2 Rikoshi

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:25 PM

 I can imagine they'd pretty much have to. After all, the players at the table may well want their own dice and not have to pick up an entire set of things for themselves, so having dice alone would be handy.



#3 Cyril

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:45 PM

LETE said:

Hi:

 

I bet the Edge of the Empire Beginners Game includes some funky SW dice.  Could it be possible for FFG to sell the dice separately for us, betatesters?

 

 

L

This has been clarified a couple of times by FFG. The Beginner's Box is going to include a full set of dice. Individual dice sets will be sold separately from the Core Rulebook at the time of that release.



#4 Corradus

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:22 AM

Cyril said:

 

 

This has been clarified a couple of times by FFG. The Beginner's Box is going to include a full set of dice. Individual dice sets will be sold separately from the Core Rulebook at the time of that release.

 

Yeah, but that don't help the playtesters much.



#5 LETE

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:28 AM

Hi!

 

We wanna dice now!

 

 

L



#6 Sturn

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:44 AM

 

They could end up changing some of the ratios on symbols of the dice due to the Beta. It would be dumb to mass produce dice now then have to change them later.

Until then we have stickers applied to dice from the Beta book sheet, a chart of conversions from standard dice, and smart phone/pad apps that can be updated if things change.



#7 Rikoshi

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:22 AM

Sturn said:

 

They could end up changing some of the ratios on symbols of the dice due to the Beta. It would be dumb to mass produce dice now then have to change them later.

And, from the sound of things here on the boards, that's exactly what FFG is going to wind up doing, in the end, since apparently the dice math isn't turning out all that well, by some estimations.



#8 New Zombie

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:44 AM

Rikoshi said:

apparently the dice math isn't turning out all that well, by some estimations.
care to clarify



#9 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

New Zombie said:

Rikoshi said:

apparently the dice math isn't turning out all that well, by some estimations.

care to clarify

 

There's been a lot of jawing/discussion/whining over in the game mechanics section about how people are citing that you're better off having more Ability dice than any Proficiency dice when it comes to calculating successes on dice rolls.

Seriously, some of the posts read like they came out of a Statistics textbook in how the break down the likelihood of getting multiple successes based on what you roll, with Proficiency dice apparently coming out on the losing end based on their armchair analysis.

Whether you believe said findings to be 100% Gospel or not is a matter of personal opinion.  Personally, I don't think the dice really need that much of an overhaul, but that's just my view on things.


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#10 That Blasted Samophlange

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:05 PM

Rikoshi said:

apparently the dice math isn't turning out all that well, by some estimations.

 

Yeah.. well… Never tell me the odds!


You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point if EU.

#11 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:10 PM

That Blasted Samophlange said:

Rikoshi said:

apparently the dice math isn't turning out all that well, by some estimations.

 

 

Yeah.. well… Never tell me the odds!

Too bad there's some folks that only want to hear about the odds *roll eyes*

Still, it's better than incessant whining about why there aren't full rules for Jedi Knights in the first book.


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#12 Corradus

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:23 PM

 In any gaming group, yer always going to get the people who want the mechanics to be something they can't…for want of a better word, "game".  These folks often scan new rules for things that lead to "One True Way's" and "Always Do's" because they hate them.  Since in most games in the past, these things have popped up in the rules and not the dice, they've focussed their attentions there, but in this case, since the dice are entirely new, that's where they're gonna focus their gaze.

I think for the writers, as much of a pain in the ass as these people are, they are also kinda necessary - sort of like that English Teacher we all had who paid not one bit of attention to what we wrote in our stories, all they cared about was where we put our punctuation or if our participles were dangling.  It was infuriating but wholly necessary.  We don't want flawed mechanics.  If a game gets a rep for that it's sunk.



#13 gribble

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:26 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

Seriously, some of the posts read like they came out of a Statistics textbook in how the break down the likelihood of getting multiple successes based on what you roll, with Proficiency dice apparently coming out on the losing end based on their armchair analysis.

Whether you believe said findings to be 100% Gospel or not is a matter of personal opinion.  Personally, I don't think the dice really need that much of an overhaul, but that's just my view on things.

 

 

To be fair, it's valuable input for FFG to have,and exactly the sort of thing that should some out of a beta, IMO. THe pages of whining about it we can probably do without, but I don't see any harm in raising it (along with proof/analysis) as part of the beta process.

That said, I also agree it isn't really a major issue, but I think something should be done to try and push the odds back the way a lot of the game system seems to have been intended to work. Personally, I like the triumph = three successes suggestion, as it has the least impact on the game/rules and any already manufactured dice, and I think it does enough to push the math in the right direction.


Star Wars Edge of the Empire (Beta test) resources:

 


#14 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

gribble said:

That said, I also agree it isn't really a major issue, but I think something should be done to try and push the odds back the way a lot of the game system seems to have been intended to work. Personally, I like the triumph = three successes suggestion, as it has the least impact on the game/rules and any already manufactured dice, and I think it does enough to push the math in the right direction.

Given that Triumph already has a built-in wildcard effect, perhaps the "turn the tide" option could be rephrased to also include "if no other immediate option presents itself, count the Triumph as three successes instead of just one"?


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#15 gribble

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:58 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

gribble said:

 

That said, I also agree it isn't really a major issue, but I think something should be done to try and push the odds back the way a lot of the game system seems to have been intended to work. Personally, I like the triumph = three successes suggestion, as it has the least impact on the game/rules and any already manufactured dice, and I think it does enough to push the math in the right direction.

 

 

Given that Triumph already has a built-in wildcard effect, perhaps the "turn the tide" option could be rephrased to also include "if no other immediate option presents itself, count the Triumph as three successes instead of just one"?

 

 

Sure, that could work. I kinda like 3 raw successes (and despair as 3 raw failures), plus the "turn the tide" effect. Makes them extra special/punchy when rolled, which is exactly what something that is only on one side across all the dice in the game and is bought with destiny points should do IMO. But I'd be happy with either approach - the key is something to shift the balance in favour of the proficiency dice a little, without completely mucking up the dice stats (or having to completely redo the dice faces).


Star Wars Edge of the Empire (Beta test) resources:

 


#16 borithan

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:45 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

That Blasted Samophlange said:

 

Rikoshi said:

apparently the dice math isn't turning out all that well, by some estimations.

 

 

Yeah.. well… Never tell me the odds!

 

 

Too bad there's some folks that only want to hear about the odds *roll eyes*

Still, it's better than incessant whining about why there aren't full rules for Jedi Knights in the first book.

Well… to be fair, the odds of dice mechanics in a game are important, at least in a Beta. If the odds are all wrong, then the game itself gets screwed up. Important to sort that out in a beta (which is meant to find problems after all), rather than leave it and finding it undermines the final product.



#17 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:03 AM

borithan said:

Well… to be fair, the odds of dice mechanics in a game are important, at least in a Beta. If the odds are all wrong, then the game itself gets screwed up. Important to sort that out in a beta (which is meant to find problems after all), rather than leave it and finding it undermines the final product.

 

I had a thought about that earlier.

A lot of the talk about "dice odds" seems to be focusing on generating successes, and how you're more likely to generate excess advantages than those extra successes.

I can't help but wonder, given Jay Little's admitted Indie-game inspiration when designing EotE as discussed on the Order 66 podcast, if that was the intent of the math all along, to focus not on rolling large numbers of successes as one might be accustomed to, but rather rolling lots of advantages, which can then be used to do a whole host of cool things both in and out of combat, where extra successes are just "do things faster" (non-combat skills) or "more damage" (combat skills).

So maybe it's not the math that's at fault, but a paradigm shift that we're still getting used to.  As a certain wrinkled green Muppet said, perhaps we need to unlearn what we have learned.


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#18 LETE

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:28 AM

Sturn said:

 

They could end up changing some of the ratios on symbols of the dice due to the Beta. It would be dumb to mass produce dice now then have to change them later.

Until then we have stickers applied to dice from the Beta book sheet, a chart of conversions from standard dice, and smart phone/pad apps that can be updated if things change.

 

Hiyas:

 

But what about the mass-produced dice for the Beginners Game?  Is this game coming out before Edge of The Empire publishes?  It'll be dumb then, to have a a game whose (?) dice are all screwy & then another corrected.

 

 

We wanna dice!!!

 

 

L



#19 awayputurwpn

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:41 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

Still, it's better than incessant whining about why there aren't full rules for Jedi Knights in the first book.

 

 

But I want the Jediiiiiii…

and also, there's no stats in the book for power converterrrrrrrrs…



#20 That Blasted Samophlange

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:57 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

I had a thought about that earlier.

A lot of the talk about "dice odds" seems to be focusing on generating successes, and how you're more likely to generate excess advantages than those extra successes.

I can't help but wonder, given Jay Little's admitted Indie-game inspiration when designing EotE as discussed on the Order 66 podcast, if that was the intent of the math all along, to focus not on rolling large numbers of successes as one might be accustomed to, but rather rolling lots of advantages, which can then be used to do a whole host of cool things both in and out of combat, where extra successes are just "do things faster" (non-combat skills) or "more damage" (combat skills).

So maybe it's not the math that's at fault, but a paradigm shift that we're still getting used to.  As a certain wrinkled green Muppet said, perhaps we need to unlearn what we have learned.

I think you're very right about the paradigm shift.  Having finally placed my dice stickers on and begun rolling dice, the mechanics feel fine.  Combat can end VERY quickly.  One lucky shot can ruin your characters day. 

It very much is a different way of thinking, sadly in such a way that many won't be able to adapt. 

I really don't think the dice will change at all.  Just because this was probably the first thing the devs started working on.   To be honest, the dice work fine.    Just rolling them, they are incredibly evocative in terms of how the action unfolds.   Since one hit can make a huge change to combat, running an encounter with the dice can make a miss-a-thon (something that happens all the time to me in d20 based games) fun.  My character can be running around, ducking behind cover, shooting steam pipes to slow down the enemy.  I feel like I matter in combat.  This will help keep a player involved, especially if they have a modicum of control on how they interpret things. 

I said this before, and I intend to work on this, but this system is PERFECT for a superhero RPG.


You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point if EU.




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