Jump to content



Photo

Overlapping Bases Rule needs tweeking. I suggest simultaneous movement with staggered action selection.


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 The_Brown_Bomber

The_Brown_Bomber

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,761 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:25 AM

I really dislike the overlapping ships rule how u have to move back again and dont get to complete you full move. The canceling of your action is a result of bases overlapping like this is way too harsh in my opinion and i think how this rule stands it actually penalizes the better pilots that move last in the round as they r now faced with more ships to collide with that were not in their flightpath at the beginning of the turn!

In a game I just played i was Vader and there were 2 or 3 occasions where i was unable to complete my move because a ship was blocking my path and as a result i overlapped them and lost my actions for the turn!

 

I would like to see a rule like:

Both overlapping ships roll 1 defense dice. If they successfully roll an evade icon then they get to do an action as normal. Pilots with Expert Handling pilot skill would get 2 defense die.

I also think that many incidences like the one described can be avoided by allowing ALL SHIPS TO MOVE SIMULTANEOUSLY. Actions should sill be selected according to pilot skill/agility as normal with the worst pilot selecting their actions first. I realize this will give all pilots information to plan which action they will take, however actions like barrel rolling will still allow for end of turns tricks to assist top pilots in out manouvring the enemy WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT loss of actions do to REPEATED COLLISIONS. Pilots selecting actions later in the round or last in the round will still have a sizeable advantage as they can still plan their action knowing all other players actions.

 

 

 


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#2 Parakitor

Parakitor

    Member

  • Members
  • 930 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:39 AM

 I played one game where Mauler Mithel crashed into Biggs two turns in a row, and had crashed into one of his own ships earlier for 3 lost actions the whole game. Was it frustrating? Yes. Did I lose? Yes. However, I learned from this experience what it means to plan your move where your opponent will be, instead of where he is. I think we'll all get better at it with practice, but I think it will still happen sometimes. To me, it really captures the frantic, frenzied nature of dogfights.

I think that having everybody move together as you suggest will greatly affect the skill levels of pilots, which will in turn disrupt the point-cost system. Having an Academy Pilot barrel roll after everybody has moved will make him just like a skill 9 pilot because his enemy will most likely be unable to barrel roll out of the way.

Besides, if everybody moves simultaneously, how does that prevent overlapping bases? I'm not clear on this point.

Now your idea for rolling evasion die is actually pretty good. I like that sense of unpredictability, but I fear it might slow down gameplay. Only one way to find out.


"That starship won't fly, Bastila."


#3 drkjedi35

drkjedi35

    Member

  • Members
  • 389 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:17 AM

I think the rule is written just fine the way it is.  I'll admit that overlapping bases was very frustrating when I first started playing, but since then I have gotten used to figuring out who was moving when and predicting where others were moving.  Yes it still happens, and it always will, but it doesn't happen anywhere near as much as it used to.  Just give it some time.  You'll figure it out.

Roy



#4 Xnath

Xnath

    Member

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:42 AM

After a few games, you definatly learn how to plan your moves better from low to high skill level.

As well as guessing where you think your opponent ships are going to be.. Hopefully. :)



#5 SuperSoldier

SuperSoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:06 AM

I think the biggest issue with the overlapping base rule will be with the tournament scene, where 8 TIE fighter teams could wreck most rebel teams by crashing into them and preventing them an action and then firing away with the fighters in the back.



#6 DailyRich

DailyRich

    Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:23 AM

Just to be clear, the rule states that you only check for overlap at the END of the maneuver.  If your final position causes your base to overlap with another ship's, then you apply the Overlap rules.  Otherwise, you're free to fly right through them.  You don't immediately end your movement the moment you run into another ship.



#7 SuperSoldier

SuperSoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:10 AM

DailyRich said:

Just to be clear, the rule states that you only check for overlap at the END of the maneuver.  If your final position causes your base to overlap with another ship's, then you apply the Overlap rules.  Otherwise, you're free to fly right through them.  You don't immediately end your movement the moment you run into another ship.

 

I'm aware. I just think currently this rule favors the Empire currently. In terms of how cheap their ships are and how much you can shut down the Rebels just by screwing with their flight patterns due to their sheer number, low cost, and their great defensive value.



#8 DailyRich

DailyRich

    Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:41 AM

It just sounded like the OP was under the impression his move ended the moment his ship's path crossed another ship, which is a huge difference from what the rules actually state.

And really, that IS what the Empire is about.  Numerous, easily expendable and replaceable resources.  Shoot all you want, we'll make more.



#9 SuperSoldier

SuperSoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:07 AM

DailyRich said:

 

It just sounded like the OP was under the impression his move ended the moment his ship's path crossed another ship, which is a huge difference from what the rules actually state.

And really, that IS what the Empire is about.  Numerous, easily expendable and replaceable resources.  Shoot all you want, we'll make more.

 

 

 

Agree completely, though my argument isn't about accuracy but more along the lines of playability. I feel like the Rebels are at a big disadvantage gameplay wise when you play unique pieces for really two major reasons..

 

There isn't much of a drop off between a tie fighter and an X-Wing in terms of stats, but points wise there is. Which leads to the second problem, the overlapping base rule which could really screw over rebels without being given an action. I'm fine with they can't target the ship they're in contact with…but not being able to focus because a group of 3 TIEs bum rushed you to get into your movement path, while another 3 are sitting back about to focus fire on you (Without you being given an action) is just irritating. 

 

I mean I love the rebels and will continue to play them regardless whether there is a disadvantage. Personally it's become part of my strategy not to let the opponent base me because when facing the empire I know how sound of a strategy it is.



#10 The_Brown_Bomber

The_Brown_Bomber

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,761 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:24 AM

 8 posts in 8 hrs :) It is clear this is quite a contentious issue in the rules.

To me, it feels wrong to be worrying about my fighter colliding with nearby ships and losing my actions. As mentioned in earlier posts, as the rules stand it is currently a viable strategy to deliberatly fly into ships to cause them to lose their action. I want my battles to be influenced partly by my skill and some luck of the dice not primarily by ships ramming me and stopping me from taking evasive/offensive action.

 

STAGGERED MOVEMENT - Staggered movement allows and encourages lesser pilots to fly in front of better pilots which may result in MORE overlapping bases or at least LIMITED options for the top pilots who SHOULD HAVE A TACTICAL ADVANTAGE by moving last but in fact they are at a TACTICAL DISADVANTAGE when lessor pilots run interference hoping for a collision that will STOP ANY ACTION taking options.

 

SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT - Simultaneous movement still gives the better pilots a tactical advantage because they choose their actions AFTER seeing what the lessor pilots actions are. If they barrel roll, you counter with a barrel roll of your own or opt for missile lock. The point is you have more information to make your choice if you get to act later in the round (Tactical Advantage). Yes the lessor pilots get to see where u r moving to, but you were committed to this action regardless. You could also introduce a rule where the BEST PILOT keeps their movement hidden as in the base game. If two pilots are tied for the highest skill they BOTH keep their movement hidden :) This way Vader and Luke and Wedge all keep their power level and their cost is justified (28-29 squad points is pretty steep, but well worth it when enemy pilots cant see ur movement or actions!)

- In large scale battles traditional staggered movement will be too slow! 6-8 or more players will be tedious. Waiting for all those moves and remembering the turn order will become too cumbersome in my humble opinion. SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT is the answer. It will need some testing but I have a feeling that as players model collections get larger, so will the number of ships involved and MASS COMBAT rules will need to be introduced to speedup play. The game is already evolving. As Wings of War/Glory has done before it. My advice. Keep playing. Keep tweeking. Add rules and modify rules which suit your own play group. This is a good thing!

 


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#11 drkjedi35

drkjedi35

    Member

  • Members
  • 389 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:47 AM

The_Brown_Bomber said:

 8 posts in 8 hrs :) It is clear this is quite a contentious issue in the rules.

To me, it feels wrong to be worrying about my fighter colliding with nearby ships and losing my actions. As mentioned in earlier posts, as the rules stand it is currently a viable strategy to deliberatly fly into ships to cause them to lose their action. I want my battles to be influenced partly by my skill and some luck of the dice not primarily by ships ramming me and stopping me from taking evasive/offensive action.

 

STAGGERED MOVEMENT - Staggered movement allows and encourages lesser pilots to fly in front of better pilots which may result in MORE overlapping bases or at least LIMITED options for the top pilots who SHOULD HAVE A TACTICAL ADVANTAGE by moving last but in fact they are at a TACTICAL DISADVANTAGE when lessor pilots run interference hoping for a collision that will STOP ANY ACTION taking options.

 

SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT - Simultaneous movement still gives the better pilots a tactical advantage because they choose their actions AFTER seeing what the lessor pilots actions are. If they barrel roll, you counter with a barrel roll of your own or opt for missile lock. The point is you have more information to make your choice if you get to act later in the round (Tactical Advantage). Yes the lessor pilots get to see where u r moving to, but you were committed to this action regardless. You could also introduce a rule where the BEST PILOT keeps their movement hidden as in the base game. If two pilots are tied for the highest skill they BOTH keep their movement hidden :) This way Vader and Luke and Wedge all keep their power level and their cost is justified (28-29 squad points is pretty steep, but well worth it when enemy pilots cant see ur movement or actions!)

- In large scale battles traditional staggered movement will be too slow! 6-8 or more players will be tedious. Waiting for all those moves and remembering the turn order will become too cumbersome in my humble opinion. SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT is the answer. It will need some testing but I have a feeling that as players model collections get larger, so will the number of ships involved and MASS COMBAT rules will need to be introduced to speedup play. The game is already evolving. As Wings of War/Glory has done before it. My advice. Keep playing. Keep tweeking. Add rules and modify rules which suit your own play group. This is a good thing!

 

If you're talking about rules for your playgroup, then its totally up to you, but if you're talking about changing the rules globally, then I think that is not a good idea.  Eight posts in eight hours is nothing compared to the 8 posts in 8 seconds that a change like that would cause.

Overlapping bases is not a collision.  It is a way to simulate 3D space in which one ship has to dodge another in order to avoid a collision.  That is why there is no damage and why you must lose your action(s).

I do understand your issue and why it bothers you so much.  It bothered me too in the beginning.  And there is a strategy where people will try to get their ships in front of yours hoping for an overlap.  However, once you have more experience in the game, you will know better what to expect and how to avoid those situations.  This issue is really more about experience than it is about the rule.  Think about where your opponent might be before you plot your next maneuver, and maybe you'll have a better play experience.

Roy



#12 -Istaril

-Istaril

    Member

  • Members
  • 776 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:52 AM

I don't see this as contentious at all…

First, as stated before, it only happens if you would end your move overlapping another ship. That can happen a lot… but 
Second, the "skip your action" affects the ship ending it's move touching a ship. It doesn't affect the ship you were touching - so you can't use Ties to "Ram" other ships and deprive them of their actions.

The two scenarios for the Tie "ramming" the Rebel are
Low init Tie "Rams" a ship, gets no action. Rebel Fighter moves, gets an action.
Low initiative Rebel moves his ship, gets an action. Tie fighter "rams" the ship, gets no action.

All the tie fighter has gained is the inability to be shot at by that specific rebel ship.
 



#13 DailyRich

DailyRich

    Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:14 AM

-Istaril said:

 

I don't see this as contentious at all…

First, as stated before, it only happens if you would end your move overlapping another ship. That can happen a lot… but 
Second, the "skip your action" affects the ship ending it's move touching a ship. It doesn't affect the ship you were touching - so you can't use Ties to "Ram" other ships and deprive them of their actions.

The two scenarios for the Tie "ramming" the Rebel are
Low init Tie "Rams" a ship, gets no action. Rebel Fighter moves, gets an action.
Low initiative Rebel moves his ship, gets an action. Tie fighter "rams" the ship, gets no action.

All the tie fighter has gained is the inability to be shot at by that specific rebel ship.
 

 

 

Was just about to say this very thing.  The ship that gets collided with suffers no ill effects save for being unable to target the ship that hit it (although does that change if the collided ship moves away from the collision in that same turn?).



#14 -Istaril

-Istaril

    Member

  • Members
  • 776 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:30 AM

 No - that firing restriction is only checked for (and only applies in) the combat phase, and only while their bases are touching (p17, bolded text).



#15 SuperSoldier

SuperSoldier

    Member

  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:50 AM

Edit: On second thought I rescind my argument. Thanks for clearing some stuff up.



#16 DavicusPrime

DavicusPrime

    Member

  • Members
  • 206 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:12 AM

Play more games and the overlapping bases ceases to be a major issue.  Players start learning how to anticipate collisions and avoid them or find ways to use them to their advantage.  It's also only a real issue around turn 3 when everyone hits the center and start passing through each others' formation.  After that, things get less predictable and more chaotic.  Making it harder to avoid negative collisions or to use collisions for your benefit.

If you run lots of low skill pilots (TIE swarm especially) you can put a bunch of ships into the path of your opponent's higher skilled pilots to try and force them to lose their action.  However, it means not having all that many of your swarm in a good firing position as you still don't know which way the target you're trying to disrupt is going to go.  So, unless you're very lucky, extra smart, or your opponent is depressingly predictable, you may force the loss of an action but only have one or two ships able to put that target ship in their firing arc.

Most of the time, collisions don't turn the game.  How well you maneuver, how well you guess your opponent's moves and how well the dice roll for you each have a stronger effect than if you bump into each other.

I haven't found any real issues with the rules outside of some needed clarity on how certain upgrades and skills interact.  It's a simple rule set which is easy to learn.  And has been play-tested well enough that there aren't any problems with the core rules that I've come across.

-DavicusPrime



#17 The_Brown_Bomber

The_Brown_Bomber

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,761 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:53 AM

 i concede that i am not an experienced pilot and am adjusting to x-wing after yrs of playing wins of war wwi. 

I will have to adapt my tactics to cope with these new rules for overlapping. 

i do think house rules will emerge to tweek the rules for personal tastes.

what r peoples thoughts on simultaneous movement for less skilled pilots with the top pilots still having hidden movement and actions? This house rule could be adapted to include all legendary pilots or all pilots of skill 5 or better?


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader


#18 qwertyuiop

qwertyuiop

    Member

  • Members
  • 815 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:04 PM

The rule is stupid, but not quite for the reason you state. Simultaneous movement isn't the answer, in my opinion.  Bad things should happen when you collide with another ship, but both ships should be similarly affected.  The rule is stupid because of the way it affects theme. The game takes place in space. FFG does make note of this in the rules..somewhere. It's a reason why ships can fly "through" each other. In this case, the ships are flying over or under each other. When a ship ends its movement overlapping another ship, they are always flying in the exact same limited space. Ok. Ok with that.  So I guess the rules are trying to simulate a near miss in this instance. A near miss which causes a pilot to panic and lose his action. A near miss which only causes one pilot in the cold dark of space to fear for his life from collision and lose his action. A near miss which prevents both pilots from shooting each other even though they are flying in the exact same limited space, but does nothing to prevent the pilots from shooting at any other ship. Ok. The no shoot rule is fine. It can be justified by the idea of "the ships are flying too fast to shoot at each other as they are passing by, but removing the action of only one of the pilots is thematically ridiculous and it does create a potentially abusable advantage. Bad things should still happen because it's a friggin' pain to back up ships. Movement gets fudged. Ships get bumped. But them's the rules of the game. We need to learn to work with them for tournament play.   As a house rule, maybe let both ships take actions and not shoot at each other? If you want to play it as a collision, each ship takes damage equal to the speed of  its current manuever, then roll agility dice equal to the same number with evades cancelling the damage. Focus is usable by the ship being run into. Or, just have each ship roll an attack die. On a hit, it takes a hit, on a blank or focus, nothing, on a crit….total destruction.  Wheeeeee.



#19 Baphomet69

Baphomet69

    Member

  • Members
  • 427 posts

Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:06 PM

 I agree, I'm disatisfied with the current overlap rules as well. If there is going to be any effect at all for overlapping, the effect should be the same as for obstacles.



#20 Guest_Not In Sample_*

Guest_Not In Sample_*
  • Guests

Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:53 PM

Maneuvering your ships is the key to victory… if you are having a problem with crashing into ships and losing your actions then you are likely just not choosing your maneuvers well enough. It can happen to any of us at one time or another but if it is happening so much that its really an issue, odds are you are just choosing your maneuvers poorly. I have won my last 2 games against an Empire player because he is still pretty new to the game and constantly loses actions to this. He  crashes into his own ships, he crashes into the ships that I lay out as blockers ( a valid tactic I have used when I know that a guy is just going to continue to be unimaginative and just fly straight at me I will throw a rookie pilot in his path for him to crash into and then lay into him with Wedge while he has no action and can't attack- I took out Vader in 2 turns doing this one game and then had my way with the rest of his fragile Ties). Granted I usually play Rebels and with them you have to fly like a wildman ( I have a large empire fleet but rarely use them as everyone else I play seem to want to play them every time which is fine by me because I have won 8 straight games with the rebellion)… when I am the rebellion, I spend half the game stressed… I fly hard… you have to if you want to outmaneuver the nimble Ties that will likely be outnumbering you as well. While focus/ target lock and other actions are great, so is not smashing into everything because you are flying staright at each other like robots and overlapping bases every turn. I would rather be unorthodox… you would be surprised how amazing it can be when you give up an obvious chance to attack this turn for 3 staright turns of unanswered attacks because you are behind them on a part of the table where a koigran is just to dangerous for them.

Bottom line, the rules are great the way they are… they punish you for thinking inside the box too much. Will you occassionally genuinely surprise each other and crash into each other and lose an action or chance to attack, sure… if it happens repeatedly  though, odds are, its your fault. You just need to outthink your opponent a little better. Its almost like poker. Once you learn his tendencies, you can anticipate him. If he is unpredictable… well then, the game just becomes a work of art… in those cases, it truly does feel like Darth Vader is flying against Wedge Antilles.

And if the effect was the same for both pilots then there is less of an advanatge for the higher skilled pilot. I have a higher skill, I pay more points, I should have an appropriate advanatge that the higher skill gives me. You move first, I haven't moved yet… you know that I am higher skilled and will not move until after you do… YOU KNOW THIS! AND YOU HIT ME ANYWAY! Why exactly should I lose my action as well? I move after you "crash" into me and I move away from you and keep my action because I am not overlapping a base after my move. Why exactly should I be punished because you are a ham and egger and ran into me before I even moved? Thats like hitting a parked car on the side of the street and saying that its partly my fault… no no no my friend,,  the rules are ok by me when it comes to a lower skilled pilot overlapping me and losing his action and then I move away and keep mine and then we both get to attack still.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS