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Simutaneous use of active solo modes and squad modes


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#1 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:38 PM

Is this possible?

Per RoB, an Active Solo Mode can be used in Squad Mode at a cost of 1 Cohesion.

Does this mean as well that you can use a Solo Mode ability and a Squad Mode ability at the same time? If so, do their effects stack? Say, combine Siege Master and Dig In (which would triple cover)?

In addition, if you use a Solo Mode like Siege Master (which is Active, but always on), do you pay the 1 Cohesion to use it in Squad Mode once per session, once per battle, ot once per round?

(Also, have we even gotten a conclusive answer on whether Size affects WS, or only BS?)



#2 herichimo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:22 AM

bogi_khaosa said:

Is this possible?

Per RoB, an Active Solo Mode can be used in Squad Mode at a cost of 1 Cohesion.

1. Does this mean as well that you can use a Solo Mode ability and a Squad Mode ability at the same time? If so, do their effects stack? Say, combine Siege Master and Dig In (which would triple cover)?

2. In addition, if you use a Solo Mode like Siege Master (which is Active, but always on), do you pay the 1 Cohesion to use it in Squad Mode once per session, once per battle, ot once per round?

3. (Also, have we even gotten a conclusive answer on whether Size affects WS, or only BS?)

1. Dunno off the top of my head, I'd say yes sometimes and no sometimes. GMs should use their common sense. In your example theres only so much defensive value a marine can get from a pane of glass or a sheet of plywood. I don't think any combinations could ever make something like that as good as a concrete divider.

2. Actually pretty complicated. There is some evidence it might not be an "always on" ability (entry says the marine must remain stationary to use it and it is an Active ability). It is also not a Passive ability (which may be used freely in squad mode) and states it works when in solo mode. If it can be used in squad mode it would incur a 1 cohesion cost (since it is Active). Either way, if my battle brother continuously wasted cohesion just to protect himself I'd not be too pleased with him.

3. Yes, for a while now. Size modifiers only affect ranged attacks as confirmed by FFG rules persons. I can provide a copy-paste of the e-mail from them if you really need it.



#3 Macharias the Mendicant

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:37 AM

bogi_khaosa said:

Is this possible?

Per RoB, an Active Solo Mode can be used in Squad Mode at a cost of 1 Cohesion.

Does this mean as well that you can use a Solo Mode ability and a Squad Mode ability at the same time? If so, do their effects stack? Say, combine Siege Master and Dig In (which would triple cover)?

In addition, if you use a Solo Mode like Siege Master (which is Active, but always on), do you pay the 1 Cohesion to use it in Squad Mode once per session, once per battle, ot once per round?

(Also, have we even gotten a conclusive answer on whether Size affects WS, or only BS?)

Generally, a SM can only benefit from ONE squad mode ability at the time (even if more than one are active and sustained by the Kill Team). I would interpret that he can chose to use a Solo Mode ability INSTEAD of a benefiting from a Squad Mode ability. So, in your example, I would make the character choose between the two. Essentially, he'd be using a Solo ability AS a Squad ability (ie: spending cohesion), hence why I'd make him choose.

I know that RoB allows a PC to spend cohesion on individual Solo abilities, but Cohesion is supposed to be about teamwork. As bogi_khaosa said, spending on SOlo abilties too often won't make the kill team happy. It should really be reserved for those desperate situations where no other options exist.

 

 



#4 Charmander

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:25 AM

Macharias the Mendicant said:

Generally, a SM can only benefit from ONE squad mode ability at the time (even if more than one are active and sustained by the Kill Team). I would interpret that he can chose to use a Solo Mode ability INSTEAD of a benefiting from a Squad Mode ability. So, in your example, I would make the character choose between the two. Essentially, he'd be using a Solo ability AS a Squad ability (ie: spending cohesion), hence why I'd make him choose.

I know that RoB allows a PC to spend cohesion on individual Solo abilities, but Cohesion is supposed to be about teamwork. As bogi_khaosa said, spending on SOlo abilties too often won't make the kill team happy. It should really be reserved for those desperate situations where no other options exist.

  

RAW, to me, indicate that one could benefit from both solo mode and squad mode abilities- the rules only say that you can activate a solo mode ability at the cost of cohesion, but I can't find any reference that says you can benefit from one or the other, just that you can't benefit from more than one _squad_ mode ability at the same time.

RAI, on the other hand, appears to me to be a clear case of only allowing the Marine to benefit from one 'special ability' at a time- thematically as well as balance-wise. 

In my games, I only allow players to benefit from one or the other, never both.  If you want to use Feat of Strength while the rest of your squad uses Fire for Effect, go for it- it'll cost you cohesion and you can do one or the other, not both.  That would also mean the subsequent turns, while Feat of Strength is still active, you can't benefit from any other Squad Mode abilities that have been called or are being sustained.

As for activation cost and keeping things active- it depends on the ability.  In the case of Siege Master, based on the entry description, I'd let the player spend the cohesion to activate it, and they could maintain it so long as they remain stationary.  They could even alternate turns as to which ability they benefitted from (squad mode versus solo mode) if applicable, but in a given turn they could only reap the benefits of one ability.  As soon as they move, it turns off and if they wished to activate it again, while in squad mode, they would need to spend the cohesion again.



#5 Nathiel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:36 AM

 I have gotten a conflicting rules answer about size modifiers saying it works for both ranged and melee. I may have been asking about BC but since the descriptions are copy/pasted it should be the same for both. I'll have to check that email account when I get home.

As for squad/solo We have been allowing the single squad mode and single solo mode simultaneously and it hasn't caused any headaches. You do burn through the cohesion faster but that's the trade off.



#6 Charmander

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:56 AM

Nathiel said:

I have gotten a conflicting rules answer about size modifiers saying it works for both ranged and melee. I may have been asking about BC but since the descriptions are copy/pasted it should be the same for both. I'll have to check that email account when I get home.

As for squad/solo We have been allowing the single squad mode and single solo mode simultaneously and it hasn't caused any headaches. You do burn through the cohesion faster but that's the trade off.

I simply go by the book, which only talks about to hit bonuses when speaking about ranged, but we've seen some conflicting clarification emails in recent history, makes me think they're a touch overworked :)

For Squad/Solo, my players will milk any advantage out of any rule they can- even if you disregard the Black Templar or Blood Angel combos of GM destruction, simply combining things like a power fist, feat of strength, and furious charge can have ridiculous outcomes.  I don't personally like my games quite that over the top so for me the two don't mix well.  As for cohesion, I think the group I run for has run out once, maybe twice, so 'burning through cohesion faster' isn't much of a deterrent for them- they definitely game the system, but it was really simple for them to build out a Kill Team with a pool of 10-15 per session.



#7 herichimo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:23 PM

I just felt it necissary to point out the rulebook states the following about solo and squad modes:

Solo modes function like talents and skills and, "Provided that the Battle-Brother is in Solo Mode, he can use his Solo Mode abilities freely." (DW Core, pg. 215)

Player characters may only benefit from one 'Squad Mode Action' a turn which, "… allow(s) Battle-Brothers to take Actions outside of their normal Turn, such as moving, shooting, or making close combat attacks." A player character which benefits from such a 'Squad Mode Action', "cannot benefit or take another Squad Mode Action until at least the start of his next Turn." (DW Core, pg. 219)



#8 Macharias the Mendicant

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:26 AM

Nathiel said:

 I have gotten a conflicting rules answer about size modifiers saying it works for both ranged and melee. I may have been asking about BC but since the descriptions are copy/pasted it should be the same for both. I'll have to check that email account when I get home.

As for squad/solo We have been allowing the single squad mode and single solo mode simultaneously and it hasn't caused any headaches. You do burn through the cohesion faster but that's the trade off.

Through the first 3 ranks of advancement I was just about the only character to regularly spend cohesion but of late the other players have started figuring out how useful it can be to have an extra melee or ranged attack 'for free.' So we've been 'running low/out' much more commonly.Thankfully I'm an Ultramarine Tactical Marine with super-Fellowship and a starting cohesion of 12. ;) 



#9 Charmander

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:41 AM

Macharias the Mendicant said:

Through the first 3 ranks of advancement I was just about the only character to regularly spend cohesion but of late the other players have started figuring out how useful it can be to have an extra melee or ranged attack 'for free.' So we've been 'running low/out' much more commonly.Thankfully I'm an Ultramarine Tactical Marine with super-Fellowship and a starting cohesion of 12. ;) 

Don't forget the Ultramarine's Rally Cry, and don't forget to spend all your fate to either heal or restore lost cohesion at the end of every session.



#10 Macharias the Mendicant

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:09 AM

Yup. :) We don't run out of cohesion too often.



#11 pearldrum1

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 11:24 PM

Stupid question of the day: There is only one *1* Cohesion Pool, right? In other words, do the players each have an individual Cohesion Pool for solo mode abilities? I am assuming not and that there is only one pool that all the players draw from for both solo and squad mode abilities - hence a members of the team getting pissed at Johnny-ShowOff for constantly using solo-mode abilities.



#12 Kshatriya

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 04:01 PM

There is 1 Cohesion pool, yes.



#13 pearldrum1

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:28 PM

OK, cool. Thank you.



#14 herichimo

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:02 AM

Yes there is normally one pool.

 

Solo Mode abilities normally do not cost cohesion, unless the character wishes to remain in squad mode when activating them.

 

Kill-Marines have their own cohesion pool based upon their own personal characteristics and modifiers. When a Kill-marine is in squad mode with other marines ANY squad mode abilities used (either by or affecting the kill-marine or not) deduct from both the squad's cohesion pool AND the Kill-marine's cohesion pool. If the Kill-Marine is in Squad Mode by himself (when he is alone, if he goes into squad mode near other marines he squads up with them) the squad mode abilities he uses ONLY deduct cohesion from his personnal cohesion pool, BUT he is limited to using only those few Squad Mode abilities allowed for solo Kill-Marines.



#15 pearldrum1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:32 AM

Yes there is normally one pool.

 

Solo Mode abilities normally do not cost cohesion, unless the character wishes to remain in squad mode when activating them.

 

Kill-Marines have their own cohesion pool based upon their own personal characteristics and modifiers. When a Kill-marine is in squad mode with other marines ANY squad mode abilities used (either by or affecting the kill-marine or not) deduct from both the squad's cohesion pool AND the Kill-marine's cohesion pool. If the Kill-Marine is in Squad Mode by himself (when he is alone, if he goes into squad mode near other marines he squads up with them) the squad mode abilities he uses ONLY deduct cohesion from his personnal cohesion pool, BUT he is limited to using only those few Squad Mode abilities allowed for solo Kill-Marines.

Well, that sure did complicate everything a whole bunch. Basically, when in Squad Mode with other Marines, the squad pool and the personal pool is used to perform squad mode abilities. This reflects the Marine benefitting personally while also working as a team. However, if he only benefits personally (by being alone in squad mode), he only takes Cohesion from his personal pool - however this only works with Kill Marines as almost all squad mode abilities require more than one marine to operate? I think I am bleeding from my ears now.

 

How do you calculate a Marine`s personal Cohesion Pool? The same way? rank+FB?



#16 Kshatriya

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:36 PM

When a Kill-marine is in squad mode with other marines ANY squad mode abilities used (either by or affecting the kill-marine or not) deduct from both the squad's cohesion pool AND the Kill-marine's cohesion pool. 

Can you cite a source to this? It's not present in the Kill-Marine rules, and it sounds like a really ****** awful rule to boot.



#17 herichimo

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:53 PM

How do you calculate a Marine`s personal Cohesion Pool? The same way? rank+FB?

 

Normal Marines do NOT have a personnal pool of cohesion.

ONLY characters taking the Kill-Marine advanced speciality from Rites of Battle (page123, RoB) do.

I added this because it is the only time a kill-team can have more than one pool without splitting off a second kill-team. (Apologies if this was not clear.)

 

A Kill-Marine's personnal pool of cohesion is calculated exactly as would a normal Kill-team EXCEPT: The Kill-Marine counts as the leader, he does NOT gain bonuses from the command skill, and he does NOT include any cohesion modifiers that do not originate from himself (I would rule any bonus which relies upon "influencing or inspiring" other brothers in the Kill-Team would not apply either. Though they would still apply to the normal team pool).

 

This is the method hashed out to balance out the "double cohesion pool" problem with Kill-Marines. Instead of a Kill-Marine, in a normal kill-team, benefiting from the team's Squad Mode abilities which use normal team cohesion, followed by the Kill-Marine then getting his own cohesion to use after the team's pool ran dry; the community decided any squad mode ability used when a Kill-Marine is in squad mode with other marines deduct from both the Team's normal pool and the Kill-Marine's pool. When alone (or out of support range) or the only one in Squad Mode (NOT: Kill-Marine in 1 squad mode and others in another), abilities used by a Kill-Marine drain only his own cohesion, but the Kill-Marine may only use the Squad Mode Abilities listed on page 125 of Rites of Battle.


Edited by herichimo, 30 October 2013 - 03:57 PM.

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#18 pearldrum1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:09 PM

Ah, understood. Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I was lost and now I am found.



#19 Kshatriya

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:24 PM

"The community decided?" So it's a homebrew rule? Please be clear about this. 

 

PS: RAW Cohesion rules are ridiculous anyway, the ability to dump all remaining Fate end-session to hoard to amounts in the 20s or beyond and then let loose like a Xenogears combo...it's completely unbalancing.


Edited by Kshatriya, 30 October 2013 - 05:26 PM.


#20 herichimo

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:00 PM

"The community decided?" So it's a homebrew rule? Please be clear about this. 

 

PS: RAW Cohesion rules are ridiculous anyway, the ability to dump all remaining Fate end-session to hoard to amounts in the 20s or beyond and then let loose like a Xenogears combo...it's completely unbalancing.

 

The rules for Kill-Marines do not specify how their cohesion pool works in conjunction with the Kill-team's cohesion pool. But, it is logical, and most simple, to assume if the Kill-Marine is in Squad Mode (either by himself or with others in the Kill-Team) ANY Squad Mode abilities used by that squad will decrease the cohesion in all pools involved in the activation.

 

Cohesion counts as the effort used by the squad when using demanding tactics, if the Kill-Marine is in Squad Mode with other marines and a Squad Mode is used, the Kill-Marine IS PARTICIPATING (even if he does not benefit) so the cost applies to him as well as the squad. Therefore the Kill-Marine's pool is reduced along with the squad.

 

This was what was decided within this very forum section after much deliberation, although this discussion was quite a while ago. It is not a homerule, but rather a clarification to the unique confliction of cohesion rules not covered in the rulebooks.

 

My advice: If you want to get the most out of the "One Man Kill-team" rule, your Kill-Marine should operate alone and seperate from the rest of the Kill-team. When he is operating with other marines he is part of the squad and not operating as a "Kill-Marine".

 

 

Our gaming group interprets a "session" generally as a major part of a mission or significant amount of time (generally determined by GM fiat), not the few hours a night we game together.


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