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Buying a new Specialization


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#1 CharlieBananas

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:54 PM

When you buy a new specialisation you get to add new career skills, I know this gives you no new ranks, but I am unsure what skill you get, is it just the ones for the specialization or is career and specialization? if it is only the skill associated with the specialization then in some cases you would not have all the basic skills needed to do that job, but on the other hand if it is all of them then you soon end up having pretty much every skill in the book as a career skill.



#2 lupex

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:43 AM

As I read it, its only the skills associated with the spec that become career skills.  As you say its a bit wonky.

I made a suggestion that you need to have ranks in at least two of the four spec skills before you can buy a spec, this would prevent people bbuying specs just to get access to 4 new career skills?


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#3 Kallabecca

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:12 PM

lupex said:

As I read it, its only the skills associated with the spec that become career skills.  As you say its a bit wonky.

I made a suggestion that you need to have ranks in at least two of the four spec skills before you can buy a spec, this would prevent people bbuying specs just to get access to 4 new career skills?

Ouch. That makes adding specs even more expensive with the changes to skill costs. Namely that they are 10 times new rank instead of 5 times (new Rank plus 1). So, the Spec just got an extra 60 XP added to the cost before you can get it. Unless the player is now playing a new game of linking specs via Career Skills… which is a silly game to force the players to play.



#4 copperbell

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:47 AM

I assumed that was just to be able to access their specific career talent trees.

Would you gain access to new career skills if you purchase a specialisation outside of the character's core career?



#5 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:41 AM

copperbell said:

I assumed that was just to be able to access their specific career talent trees.

Would you gain access to new career skills if you purchase a specialisation outside of the character's core career?

You'd only gain access to those skills listed as being part of that specific non-career specilization, not the ones listed for the base career.

So if you're a Hired Gun/Bodyguard and you decided to pick up the Pilot specialization from Smuggler, you'd only get the career skills directly listed for Pilot, not those listed for Smuggler.


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#6 CharlieBananas

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:46 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

You'd only gain access to those skills listed as being part of that specific non-career specilization, not the ones listed for the base career.

So if you're a Hired Gun/Bodyguard and you decided to pick up the Pilot specialization from Smuggler, you'd only get the career skills directly listed for Pilot, not those listed for Smuggler.

Thanks for the replies everyone, if someone can tell where it spells that out in the rules then I would most greatful.



#7 Rikoshi

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:27 AM

CharlieBananas said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

 

You'd only gain access to those skills listed as being part of that specific non-career specilization, not the ones listed for the base career.

So if you're a Hired Gun/Bodyguard and you decided to pick up the Pilot specialization from Smuggler, you'd only get the career skills directly listed for Pilot, not those listed for Smuggler.

 

 

Thanks for the replies everyone, if someone can tell where it spells that out in the rules then I would most greatful.

p.65, under Acquiring New Specializations: "…each specialization has career skills. These skills now count as career skills for the character…"



#8 CharlieBananas

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:27 AM

Yeah again thanks, and not trying to be a **** but if you look at the trees they list career skills and bonus skills, what I'm looking for is where it says you only get bonus skills, page 65 states that each specialization has career skills (note it doesn't state bonus skills), and he now counts them as career skills.

I feel it will be that you only get the bonus skills but the problem is that you end up with an assassin without ranged combat of any sort, a trader without charm, a bodyguard without vigilance, a merc who can't use a handgun, and a scoundrel without streetwise, this seems off to me.

Again I hope I'm not coming across as a ****, I just feel it needs to be clear in the rules, and at the moment it's not.

All the best

Mike



#9 dingwog

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 04:52 AM

To me, it is clearly stated on page 65.  I think the issue is your calling them "bonus" skiils when they are really additional career skills a specialization gives you.  From page 65, "In addition, each specialization has career skills.  These skills now count as career skills for the character." 

This doesn't say anything about picking up a career's skills, only that a specialization also has career skills that now count for your PC.



#10 CharlieBananas

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 07:44 AM

Yeah, the problem is the specialization trees list both career and bonus career skills, so the question remains where does it say you only get the bonus skills, and like I said if you only get the bonus skills then in some cases you will miss out on some very basic skills that you would need to fill the role you are playing.



#11 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

CharlieBananas said:

Yeah, the problem is the specialization trees list both career and bonus career skills, so the question remains where does it say you only get the bonus skills, and like I said if you only get the bonus skills then in some cases you will miss out on some very basic skills that you would need to fill the role you are playing.

I honestly think you're trying to read more into things when the answer is fairly simple.

Those "bonus career" skills listed under each Specialization are there because they're gained in addition to the eight skills you get from your career.  Since you can purchase specializations not associated with your starting career, they are bonus additions to the list of skill that you get to pay the career skill XP rather than the slightly more costly non-career skill XP rate.

So yes, it is very likely that certain skills won't be available as "career skills" to some players unless they go way outside their perceived "niche.'  However, as non-career skills are back to only having an extra +5XP cost, it's no longer as pricy to purchase a non-career skill as it used to be, and in fact it's probably cheaper to simply buy those skills at the non-career rate than to purchase a non-career specialization just to add those skills to your existing career list.


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#12 CharlieBananas

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:42 AM

The point remains that you cannot 100% hand on heart say that your ruling is correct, the reason for the Beta is to make sure stuff like this is clear and concise, sorry but it isn't for you or I to make a house rule and say that we are correct. It could also be fair to say that the division of Career skills and Bonus skills is there only for character generation and the character's allocation of free ranks, otherwise why list Career skills in the talents trees at all, there is no need for them to be there, you would only require the bonus skills.


If as has been said, you only get bonus career skills when you buy a new specialisation outside of your career, then page 65 needs to be rewritten -

"each specialization lists bonus skills, these now count as career skills for that character, but he gains no free ranks in them."

- Or the like. The devs may also want to look at the distribution of skills within each specialization to make sure that a character taking the spec gets all the skills needed to fill the role they are taking. While I understand your point on the new cost of skills, it's Irrelevant! If the rules are there then they need to be consistent and they need to work, I love the system and have since I first played WFRP 3e but others may not be so charitable when they see an Assassin who gets no cost break on ranged combat skills, it's wonky plain and simple.


If you get all the skills listed then page 65 needs to read something like -

"each specialization list career skills and bonus skills these now get added to the characters career skills, but he gains no free ranks in them."

-No other changes need be made.


I'm not using house rules during the beta, but once I have the finished game then I'm probably going to dump career skills outside of character generation, and have a single cost for skills, it will mean one less thing to track and it won't make the game less fun.

Again I hope i don't sound too crabby, I've been up most of the night with my toddler and it's catching up with me.

All the best

Mike

 






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