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Crit Vs. Astormech


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#1 Tforster78

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:06 AM

Got a quick question and I would like to get some opinions. In my last game I was using a Y-Wing with equipped with a R2 Astromech. My opponent managed to crit me (thanks to a few lucky rolls). The crit i recieved stated that any Turn (90 degree) is considered a Red maneuver. The R2 states that any 1 or 2 maneuver is a green.


I said the Astromech combats the crit, while he says the crit overrides the astromech, On page 20 of the rule book there was a blurb about rule breaking
" Breaking the Rules: Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overrides the general rules. If one card ability forbids an effect, while another ability allows it, the effect is forbidden."

I do not think this applies to the Crit and Astromech. My reasoning is the astromech is not disabled therefore it can use its ability to override the crit. What do you guys think?
 



#2 Emrico

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:27 AM

Tforster78 said:

Got a quick question and I would like to get some opinions. In my last game I was using a Y-Wing with equipped with a R2 Astromech. My opponent managed to crit me (thanks to a few lucky rolls). The crit i recieved stated that any Turn (90 degree) is considered a Red maneuver. The R2 states that any 1 or 2 maneuver is a green.


I said the Astromech combats the crit, while he says the crit overrides the astromech, On page 20 of the rule book there was a blurb about rule breaking
" Breaking the Rules: Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overrides the general rules. If one card ability forbids an effect, while another ability allows it, the effect is forbidden."

I do not think this applies to the Crit and Astromech. My reasoning is the astromech is not disabled therefore it can use its ability to override the crit. What do you guys think?
 

I think your reasoning is faulty.  The R2 Astromech is a card. It allows all speed 1 and 2 maneuvers to be green maneuvers.  The crit causes hard turns to be red maneuvers.  Both are cards.  They conflict.  The effect that forbids speed 2 hard turns from being green maneuvers takes precedences.  This is not difficult and your reasoning is wishful thinking.

Jim


Rebels: 3 YT-1300s, 6 X-Wings, 6 Y-Wings, 6 A-Wings, 6 B-Wings, 4 HWK-290s,10 Z-95s, 3 E-Wings, 2 GR-75s, 1 CR-90
Imperials: 8 TIEs, 4 TIE Adv, 12 TIE Interceptors, 3 Firesprays, 6 TIE Bombers, 5 Lambdas, 3 TIE Defenders, 4 Phantoms

#3 Budgernaut

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:41 AM

Emrico said:

Tforster78 said:

 

Got a quick question and I would like to get some opinions. In my last game I was using a Y-Wing with equipped with a R2 Astromech. My opponent managed to crit me (thanks to a few lucky rolls). The crit i recieved stated that any Turn (90 degree) is considered a Red maneuver. The R2 states that any 1 or 2 maneuver is a green.


I said the Astromech combats the crit, while he says the crit overrides the astromech, On page 20 of the rule book there was a blurb about rule breaking
" Breaking the Rules: Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overrides the general rules. If one card ability forbids an effect, while another ability allows it, the effect is forbidden."

I do not think this applies to the Crit and Astromech. My reasoning is the astromech is not disabled therefore it can use its ability to override the crit. What do you guys think?
 

 

 

I think your reasoning is faulty.  The R2 Astromech is a card. It allows all speed 1 and 2 maneuvers to be green maneuvers.  The crit causes hard turns to be red maneuvers.  Both are cards.  They conflict.  The effect that forbids speed 2 hard turns from being green maneuvers takes precedences.  This is not difficult and your reasoning is wishful thinking.

Jim

I do not think this concern is so easily dismissed. There is a subforum for rules questions and answers (from the community, not FFG) and this question has been up there for a while (R2 Unit vs Damaged Engine). At the moment, we have found no rule to confirm which card takes precedence. I do think the critical hit should overrule the astromech ability, but that is purely opinion. There is nothing in the rules to support that stance.


"There is a fine line between neutral and amoral. In fact, there may be no line there at all."

--Count Dooku


#4 Emrico

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:08 PM

Budgernaut said:

Emrico said:

 

Tforster78 said:

 

Got a quick question and I would like to get some opinions. In my last game I was using a Y-Wing with equipped with a R2 Astromech. My opponent managed to crit me (thanks to a few lucky rolls). The crit i recieved stated that any Turn (90 degree) is considered a Red maneuver. The R2 states that any 1 or 2 maneuver is a green.


I said the Astromech combats the crit, while he says the crit overrides the astromech, On page 20 of the rule book there was a blurb about rule breaking
" Breaking the Rules: Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overrides the general rules. If one card ability forbids an effect, while another ability allows it, the effect is forbidden."

I do not think this applies to the Crit and Astromech. My reasoning is the astromech is not disabled therefore it can use its ability to override the crit. What do you guys think?
 

 

 

I think your reasoning is faulty.  The R2 Astromech is a card. It allows all speed 1 and 2 maneuvers to be green maneuvers.  The crit causes hard turns to be red maneuvers.  Both are cards.  They conflict.  The effect that forbids speed 2 hard turns from being green maneuvers takes precedences.  This is not difficult and your reasoning is wishful thinking.

Jim

 

 

I do not think this concern is so easily dismissed. There is a subforum for rules questions and answers (from the community, not FFG) and this question has been up there for a while (R2 Unit vs Damaged Engine). At the moment, we have found no rule to confirm which card takes precedence. I do think the critical hit should overrule the astromech ability, but that is purely opinion. There is nothing in the rules to support that stance.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree until the FAQ is released.  I don't see this as anything but a black & white issue, already covered by the card precedence rules.  I think it is complete wishful thinking that people want their 1 point astromech to negate a critical card.

Jim


Rebels: 3 YT-1300s, 6 X-Wings, 6 Y-Wings, 6 A-Wings, 6 B-Wings, 4 HWK-290s,10 Z-95s, 3 E-Wings, 2 GR-75s, 1 CR-90
Imperials: 8 TIEs, 4 TIE Adv, 12 TIE Interceptors, 3 Firesprays, 6 TIE Bombers, 5 Lambdas, 3 TIE Defenders, 4 Phantoms

#5 Ming31

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:31 PM

The rule stats if one card allows ( 1's ans 2's green)  and another forbids ( turns become red) then forbidden applies .

If you cannot not agree on that ; the the astro mech cancels the red on 1 and two turns ( back to white) but red still applies on higher speed turns .

This second rulw will play havoc on stress and actions I prefer the first rule as closest to the rules.

 



#6 Parakitor

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:34 PM

Emrico said:

Budgernaut said:

 

Emrico said:

 

Tforster78 said:

 

Got a quick question and I would like to get some opinions. In my last game I was using a Y-Wing with equipped with a R2 Astromech. My opponent managed to crit me (thanks to a few lucky rolls). The crit i recieved stated that any Turn (90 degree) is considered a Red maneuver. The R2 states that any 1 or 2 maneuver is a green.


I said the Astromech combats the crit, while he says the crit overrides the astromech, On page 20 of the rule book there was a blurb about rule breaking
" Breaking the Rules: Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overrides the general rules. If one card ability forbids an effect, while another ability allows it, the effect is forbidden."

I do not think this applies to the Crit and Astromech. My reasoning is the astromech is not disabled therefore it can use its ability to override the crit. What do you guys think?
 

 

 

I think your reasoning is faulty.  The R2 Astromech is a card. It allows all speed 1 and 2 maneuvers to be green maneuvers.  The crit causes hard turns to be red maneuvers.  Both are cards.  They conflict.  The effect that forbids speed 2 hard turns from being green maneuvers takes precedences.  This is not difficult and your reasoning is wishful thinking.

Jim

 

 

I do not think this concern is so easily dismissed. There is a subforum for rules questions and answers (from the community, not FFG) and this question has been up there for a while (R2 Unit vs Damaged Engine). At the moment, we have found no rule to confirm which card takes precedence. I do think the critical hit should overrule the astromech ability, but that is purely opinion. There is nothing in the rules to support that stance.

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree until the FAQ is released.  I don't see this as anything but a black & white issue, already covered by the card precedence rules.  I think it is complete wishful thinking that people want their 1 point astromech to negate a critical card.

Jim

Emrico said:

Budgernaut said:

 

Emrico said:

 

Tforster78 said:

 

Got a quick question and I would like to get some opinions. In my last game I was using a Y-Wing with equipped with a R2 Astromech. My opponent managed to crit me (thanks to a few lucky rolls). The crit i recieved stated that any Turn (90 degree) is considered a Red maneuver. The R2 states that any 1 or 2 maneuver is a green.


I said the Astromech combats the crit, while he says the crit overrides the astromech, On page 20 of the rule book there was a blurb about rule breaking
" Breaking the Rules: Some abilities on cards conflict with the general rules. In case of a conflict, card text overrides the general rules. If one card ability forbids an effect, while another ability allows it, the effect is forbidden."

I do not think this applies to the Crit and Astromech. My reasoning is the astromech is not disabled therefore it can use its ability to override the crit. What do you guys think?
 

 

 

I think your reasoning is faulty.  The R2 Astromech is a card. It allows all speed 1 and 2 maneuvers to be green maneuvers.  The crit causes hard turns to be red maneuvers.  Both are cards.  They conflict.  The effect that forbids speed 2 hard turns from being green maneuvers takes precedences.  This is not difficult and your reasoning is wishful thinking.

Jim

 

 

I do not think this concern is so easily dismissed. There is a subforum for rules questions and answers (from the community, not FFG) and this question has been up there for a while (R2 Unit vs Damaged Engine). At the moment, we have found no rule to confirm which card takes precedence. I do think the critical hit should overrule the astromech ability, but that is purely opinion. There is nothing in the rules to support that stance.

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree until the FAQ is released.  I don't see this as anything but a black & white issue, already covered by the card precedence rules.  I think it is complete wishful thinking that people want their 1 point astromech to negate a critical card.

Jim

 

I agree that it seems pretty clear that the critical hit overrides the astromech droid’s ability, but saying things like, “The concept isn’t difficult,” and “it’s wishful thinking,” aren’t very nice. Why did you feel you needed to be rude to a fellow fan of this totally AWESOME game?

Besides, as Budgernaut has pointed out there is an entire thread devoted to this question. And we’ve seen precedent for an upgrade card canceling a critical hit effect (see Determination).

Feel free to share your opinion, Emrico Jim, but throttle back a little.

 


"That starship won't fly, Bastila."


#7 KarmikazeKidd

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:26 PM

 Clearly, the only issue that is truly black and white is whether or not Oreos are oh so yummy. Except perhaps whether or not one might use them as a proxy for movement dials under extreme conditions. And there is reason for confusion because, for one, the crit effect does not necessarily 'forbid' anything any more than the R2 does. Since that's not really how it's worded, you could just as easily say that it causes all hard turn maneuvers to be stress maneuvers, but R2 forbids the 1 and 2 turn maneuvers from being anything but green. Personally, I think the intent is for the crit to win out. But they simply didn't word it properly to insure we see it that way. And that's why we have FAQs. So maybe just keep the Snark on its leash for a bit. Save it for a proper occasion when you're arguing with an actual douchebag, like me. Carry on.



#8 KarmikazeKidd

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:30 PM

 Tforster, I'm not going to belabor the points others have made but simply offer a temporary solution. As per the rules, if you disagree with your opponent you may simply roll dice to determine the call. Personally, this is one instance where I think chance is actually one of the better solutions. You could easily say the two forces are at odds and in one instance the R2 manages to counter the damage and perform his work properly, and other going through another turn the stress is just a little too much for it to handle. Here, we're going to roll a die every time it comes up and see what happens. It's just a fun little quirk in the game for now until we have an FAQ. At least that's how we see it.



#9 Tforster78

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:56 PM

 I am not worried about everyone has an opinion, some just express it better than others.  We did do the die roll and I lost. We agreed to let the crit override the astromech until we can find some clarification.  



#10 Budgernaut

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:13 PM

 Yes, just as KarmikazeKidd said, there is no text in either of these cards that uses the word "forbid" or implies its meaning. They both say to treat all ____ maneuvers as _____. Nothing is forbidding anything else, so to suggest that imposing the "forbid" rule of precedence to this situation solves the problem is -- to use your own phrase -- wishful thinking.


"There is a fine line between neutral and amoral. In fact, there may be no line there at all."

--Count Dooku





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