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Convincing the GM - and other stuff


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#1 Grimze

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:03 AM

Hey fellow brothers.

Atm. im playing as an Assault marines of the Black Templars.

My characthers concept is not being overly strong, but having enough hatred to kill the enemies of the Emperor.

The first thing - nothing about the GM, is that no chapter i have seen, get Hatred (Chaos Space Marine), and not even through the General Space marine lists… i find that a bit weird..

 

The problem I have with my GM is, that he isn't large enough about a few things.

1: He allowed people to take an optional career (like Tyrannic War Veteran) which wasn't optional at the start. The reason he allowed this, was because a female friend of us (GF to one of the boys) would like to join us, but as a Sister of Battle instead of being a brother to us marines (which is kinda understandable). The problem is now, that he want to take back his words allowing us to advance through different careers, like the Sword Brethren as my optional advance. Most of my character concept were about being one of them, using all the different hatreds (got 6 different ones at rank 3) with the special trait of the SB - Sword Brethern, and of course talents like Scourge of Heretics ect.

What's your opinion about this ?

 

2: I know that the talents Scourge of Heretics, Hunter of Aliens and Slayer of Daemons are "made up by GM's opinion". But seriously.. I can't get my bonus against Chaos Space marines - cause "they ain't heretics" (which make me think that he is only ref. to cultists).

If I really have to fly - !"#! the rules, then Orks, Eldars and Tau ain't aliens, but other species of Humanoids. All of the races can talk, reproduce themselves ect ect. Which ends up with Tyranids (and / or Necrons) to be left behind as Xenos / Aliens.

Is it just me getting mad, or are my GM too strict about the rules - refering to "The book is only a guide line" statement.

Your opinion ?



#2 The Russian

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:22 AM

Grimze said:

Hey fellow brothers.

Atm. im playing as an Assault marines of the Black Templars.

My characthers concept is not being overly strong, but having enough hatred to kill the enemies of the Emperor.

The first thing - nothing about the GM, is that no chapter i have seen, get Hatred (Chaos Space Marine), and not even through the General Space marine lists… i find that a bit weird..

 

The problem I have with my GM is, that he isn't large enough about a few things.

1: He allowed people to take an optional career (like Tyrannic War Veteran) which wasn't optional at the start. The reason he allowed this, was because a female friend of us (GF to one of the boys) would like to join us, but as a Sister of Battle instead of being a brother to us marines (which is kinda understandable). The problem is now, that he want to take back his words allowing us to advance through different careers, like the Sword Brethren as my optional advance. Most of my character concept were about being one of them, using all the different hatreds (got 6 different ones at rank 3) with the special trait of the SB - Sword Brethern, and of course talents like Scourge of Heretics ect.

What's your opinion about this ?

 

2: I know that the talents Scourge of Heretics, Hunter of Aliens and Slayer of Daemons are "made up by GM's opinion". But seriously.. I can't get my bonus against Chaos Space marines - cause "they ain't heretics" (which make me think that he is only ref. to cultists).

If I really have to fly - !"#! the rules, then Orks, Eldars and Tau ain't aliens, but other species of Humanoids. All of the races can talk, reproduce themselves ect ect. Which ends up with Tyranids (and / or Necrons) to be left behind as Xenos / Aliens.

Is it just me getting mad, or are my GM too strict about the rules - refering to "The book is only a guide line" statement.

Your opinion ?

#1: If he isn't giving a legitimate reason for the change, it seems sketchy. He is being helpful to Miss Sororitas though. But not allowing advanced specialties after he originally made them available… that's kinda odd without a valid reason.

#2: I would count CSMs as heretics… you know because it was called the Horus Heresy. and Orks, Eldar, and Tau not xenos? Well they aren't human (Orks and Eldar are older than humans… at least Eldar are anyway) and are only humaniod in the respect that they are shaped like humans, xenos reproduce and talk (tyranids can reproduce and necrons can talk now). Xenos also could mean basically not human therefore alien, aside from the textbook definition of "xeno."

I'd would say (mostly on the basis of #2) that he is being fairly narrow with the definitions of some of the fluff and talents



#3 Grimze

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:32 AM

The Russian said:

 

 

#1: If he isn't giving a legitimate reason for the change, it seems sketchy. He is being helpful to Miss Sororitas though. But not allowing advanced specialties after he originally made them available… that's kinda odd without a valid reason.

#2: I would count CSMs as heretics… you know because it was called the Horus Heresy. and Orks, Eldar, and Tau not xenos? Well they aren't human (Orks and Eldar are older than humans… at least Eldar are anyway) and are only humaniod in the respect that they are shaped like humans, xenos reproduce and talk (tyranids can reproduce and necrons can talk now). Xenos also could mean basically not human therefore alien, aside from the textbook definition of "xeno."

I'd would say (mostly on the basis of #2) that he is being fairly narrow with the definitions of some of the fluff and talents

To #1, we already got a tyrannic War Veteran, as he allowed at that time. It's very helpful for our Sororita, cause she could end up being better than us in some few ways (Fate point system for sororitas).

But yes, it's quite odd if he takes his words back.. which would ruin 2 character concepts in the team.

 

#2: None can see how CSM ain't heretics ..  About that with the Hunter of Aliens is, definition of things, but Tau/Tyranid/Orks/Eldar/Necrons can only be Aliens.. None can't say anything against that.



#4 Decessor

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:58 AM

First of all, have you talked with your GM about these issues and why you are unhappy with them? He may not realise there even a problem if you don't say it.

1. If an advanced specialty is actually broken to the point it would ruin the game then I could understand changing its availability during a campaign. But if he's fine with tyrannic war veteran which is mechanically one of the stronger specialties in First Founding, I have trouble understanding why other specialties would now suddenly be a problem.

 

2. How I would rule it:

Hatred (heretics): applies to mortal heretics because Hatred (chaos space marines) exists in the rules, at least for Dark Angels and Chaplains.

Hatred (chaos space marines): applies to chaos space marines.

Scourge of Heretics: applies to all heretics, whether mortal, heretek or space marine. Because this talent has no equivalent that only applies to chaos space marines.

 

I'll rephrase my first line and urge you to discuss any issues with your GM. Getting annoyed and saying nothing is a bad idea.



#5 Grimze

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:25 AM

I did point it out to the GM severel times during the session, and how dissappointed about how he handled this situation. I asked some of the players after session, and they too were dissapointed about it.

 

I figured out earlier, that Hatred (heretics) and Hatred (Chaos Space Marine) is clearly two different groups of enemies, but as you pointed out, Scourge of heretics "includes" all the groups of heretics the imperium is faced against.



#6 Thebigjul

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:11 PM

For your Gm tell him to let you get your advance carrier and offer him the book about the church in  DH line, Blood of martyrs if i remember well.

Then your sororitas will have acces to a lot of funny gear and more power of faith who will make her quite an asset with a really different power than the SM.



#7 Decessor

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:27 AM

I have to say, I prefer the Blood of Martyrs rules for Sororitas characters. If you're looking at that book, also grab the Heresy Begets Retribution web supplement from the Dark Heresy support page. More gear and an ascended class for the Sororitas.



#8 angelis1974

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:33 AM

Firstly if he can’t give you a good reason for removing the option of taking an alternate path then he’s a bit of a ***, however ask him and see if he has a good reason, and if he says it’s to balance out the power between a Soriatas and a marine then he’s a bit silly as marines will almost always out class the Soriatas anyway, especially as Sword Brother is one of the more balanced options anyway, does he realise that you only get to choose one of the powers per mission?.

 

I would also add my voice to the use of blood of matyrs and the download as they will bring the Soriatas up to almost being the equal of the marines, in fact if he uses the faith talents she would be more powerful, as she would start at rank 9 and therefore free to have up to 11 of them and another 1 for each rank, and with that many she would in the right rare circumstances outclass the marines with considerable ease.

As for the second problem it’s simple,
If it has the daemonic trait then its affected by slayer of daemons
If it’s human then its affected by scourge of Heretics (*)
If it’s neither of the above then its affected by hunter of aliens

* it is possible under the right circumstances for this to not apply, but that would only be if the mission was either a set up or an intelligence mistake and you attack genuinely innocent people, which could be an interesting story but only if used sparingly
 






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