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Format change after wave 2


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#1 Fabster

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:29 AM

Hi there,

 

Do you think that the game format (100 points) will increase after Falcon and Slaver appear ? After all the basic cost of Slaver is about 35 points plus upgrades (which can easily by 50 points). What do you think?

 

On the top of that, what do you think may be the maximum point limit for tournament play? I mean, some of us probably have seen the final game from GenCon 2012 (100 pts.) and its length was about 90 minutes. What do you think is reasonable point limit before games become too long?



#2 R2D2

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:52 AM

I would hope that they will run tournaments with higher point values. Id guess they would move to 150 at some point after wave 2.

 

As for the length of game; I havent noticed a missve difference between, say, 60 and 100 point games. I think the game length depends on the players more than anything. Ive had a few 60 point games which took about 30 minutes and others which took closer to an hour… The first tournament was slow because they hadnt gotten to grips with the moves, best tactics etc.

 

Id expect you could get a 150 point game in 90 minutes…



#3 DagobahDave

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:42 AM

Rather than bloat the squad points to accommodate more and larger ships, I think they'll try to balance the Slave I and Falcon so they can fit into 100 point competitive squads.

Where did you find the point cost for the Slave I, by the way? The promo image of the Boba Fett card is too fuzzy to make out the points cost.

If the base price is really only about 35 points, or 50 when heavily upgraded, that's easily affordable for the Imperials. At that price, they could still field 4 basic TIEs along with the Slave I (or some other Firespray 31), which could be a totally competitive squad.

My guess with the Falcon is that you're probably going to have just enough points left over for a couple of cheap fighters, or one expensive fighter with upgrades. That could be competitive, too.


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#4 Budgernaut

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:21 AM

 The biggest problem I see with increasing the points, is that those who don't want to field the new medium ships will need a lot more models to fill up that extra 50 points, especially Imperial players. An Academy swarm at that level will include 12 TIE Fighters! While some people have already bought enough stuff to do 150 (or even 200) point games, many of us have to stretch to get to 100. As for me, if they went to 150 points, I'd play Rebels, because I can easily deck out 2 X-wings and 2 Y-wings to get 150 points. For Imperials, I'd have to use the Slave I or buy more ships. Actually, now that I recalculated it, if I get my dream order of the Millennium Falcon, Slave I, 2 A-wings, and 2-TIE Interceptors, I'll be able to do 150 points with Imperials by using all my ships.

So yeah, I guess it makes sense to bump it up so people will buy more ships. I just think 100 points is plenty.


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#5 kmanweiss

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:46 AM

Bumping up the point total could have some negatives.  150 pt Imp vs Imp game could have 24 total tie fighters on the board.  You don't think that would drag the game down a bit?  No time limit would be a never ending game, and if you have a 60 minute time limit you'd have maybe 2 exchanges of fire by the end of it.

 

I think the cheapest someone can field a 100 point Imperial team right now (msrp) is like $70.

 

I'm sure most everyone on this forum can field 200 point teams for either side, but the people playing the tourneys might get turned off if every wave increases the cost of playing the game significantly.



#6 chris cook

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

The same thing happened to Star Wars Minitures. It started at 100  then 150 then 200 and 500 (with higher cost minis coming out)  I would be fine with 120 max  OR like in SWM 500pt games there is a limit on the number of minis being used.  Say….. 120pts 6 ships max.  I agree that there should never by 14+ ships flying around, that would bog it down.  I do not like the idea of 100pts with large ships unless we know for sure that 1 large with 1 or 2 smalls at 100pts would be competive vs 6-7 ememies.  Right know the game seems to be about more ships (like imperial swarms) as the best options for winning.  This would make the large ships as noncompetive.



#7 Fabster

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:07 AM

These are exactly my concerns, I'm afraid that with new (more expensive) ships point limits  will be increased to encourage/enable using them but in fact it will encourage using even bigger swarms instead.



#8 cleardave

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:31 AM

 It would be pretty unreasonable to expect FFG to overhaul their whole Official Tournament Rules document so early in the game's life, to accommodate your 100pt build plus a new Millenium Falcon.  If you look at closely at the pics for the Falcon, you can see that the Han Solo card weighs in at 47 points, and that's without any upgrades.

Who's to say taking Han in a 100pt match wouldn't be viable?You would probably still have room in your build to take another X-Wing pilot of some kind.  Don't forget, as well, that it looks like the Falcon gets 3 Attack Dice at what we're assuming is a 360 degree fire arc.  You don't need to worry about  getting TIE's in your front arc anymore, just staying out of theirs.

With some evasive flying, your turret should help thin out their numbers a bit.  Also, with 5 shields and 8 hull, it's not going down without a fight.  It's easy enough to hit though, at Agility 1, so you may be making liberal use of your Evade action.

If anything, rocking Han in a 100pt tournament list puts you in a win big or lose big scenario, so your one ship could do well enough with minimal support, but if the opponent gets some lucky rolls off the start, you could be in a world of hurt if the Falcon goes down without taking any of your opponent's ship's with it.



#9 cmdrcody

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:35 AM

 While I do agree that tournaments will be affected (by whatever point total is picked), I can;t help but wonder what % of players EVER play tournaments.

I play all the following games, and never have played in a  tournament - you don't have to to enjoy a game.

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#10 Harleequin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:47 AM

No no no no noooooooo Absolutely noooooooooooot. They should under no circumstances increase the point total. Increasing the point total makes those ships worth even less. In larger point games, it's all about positioning and size of your squad. That is why 100 point games (with astroids) are perfect. Rebels or Imperials can win right now, with no generic favor going to the opposing team. If the points went up to 150 however, I would totally almost NEVER play Rebels. Imperial swarm is deadly right now, but can you imagine it with 1x Each Specialty pilot Tie Fighter + Darth Vader ? Thats only 126 points, you can now add one more TIE Academy Pilot and add 3 Swarm Tactics (Darth Vader, Howlrunner, Mauler Mithel) And Give Darth Vader Cluster Missiles. This puts you at 148 / 150 which at 150 is tactically better to have than 150/150, especially when weilding Swarm Tactics. Why? Because your opponent may have spent 149, or 150/150, this now gives you initiative to maneuver same level ships, and combat same level ships, first.

TL:DR, Imperials will never lose a 150/150 game with the above squad. So no format change.



#11 cleardave

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:39 AM

Harleequin said:

 

TL:DR, Imperials will never lose a 150/150 game with the above squad. So no format change.

Never say never.  All kinds of things can turn the tide, if you play smartly and exploit any advantage that may come out of a lucky break with movement, or a huge die roll.  Even the initial approach, before the ships get all stuck in, is critical, especially if you don't want a TIE swarm to tear up your Rebel ships in one pass.

Anyways, I still agree that 100pts is plenty for a game.  If you start jacking up the points, just so somebody can shoe-horn in a Millenium Falcon on top of their comfy 100pt build, you're just opening up the tournament scene to have the games totally drag on and on when other people use it, not to run the most super-elite of the super-elite, but to use 4 extra Academy Pilots in their squadron.  That's a lot of ships to move around each turn, and deal with.

As it happens, if you're not going to be involved in organized play, do whatever you want, but it seems way to unnecessary to alter the 100pt tournament cap over a Han Solo card.



#12 drkjedi35

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:50 AM

cmdrcody said:

 While I do agree that tournaments will be affected (by whatever point total is picked), I can;t help but wonder what % of players EVER play tournaments.

I play all the following games, and never have played in a  tournament - you don't have to to enjoy a game.

No, not everybody plays in tournaments.  There is nothing that says you have to play in a tournament to enjoy the game.  But there are a lot of us who do.  There are probably a lot more who do than you would imagine.  I would definitely recommend that you play in one just once, so you can see what its like.  Some people are intimidated by it.  Some people just don't like the competitiveness.  But I think it is definitely something that every gamer should experience.  As far as the point change goes, it will only affect the tournament players.  Casual gamers can play whatever point total they want.  The only thing that would stop you from playing a 500pt game is yourself. 

Star Wars Miniature did move up from 100 to 150 to 200.  And the 500pt tournament is a special situation that just happened last year for the figures that they created that cost 100+ points.  But all that took time.  It wasn't after the 2nd or even 3rd expansion.  The move from 100 to 150 didn't happen until the game had been around for at least 2 years, and the 500pt EPIC tournaments didn't start until well after WotC gave up the license and the player run SWMGPA took over.  Also remember that all games change over time.  What might be meta right now, may not be in 6 months.  TIE swarms, may get outgunned by A-wing swarms, or there may be another ship or upgrade that comes out that that makes swarms extremely vulnerable.  But to move the build total up over 100pts this early in the game would be disappointing.  There aren't enough options for ships at this point.  Hopefully this won't happen for quite some time.

However there is nothing stopping someone from running a 150pt tournament, as long as it is announced in advance of the tournament so that all the players are aware.

Roy



#13 jskinny

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:07 AM

I actually think going up to 100pt is a bit much.  We’ve been playing at the 50-75pt  range and it seems to make the game move faster, adds a little more desperation into the conflict, and makes the players better manage their squadron builds better. 



#14 jskinny

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:08 AM

I actually think going up to 100pt is a bit much.  We’ve been playing at the 50-75pt  range and it seems to make the game move faster, adds a little more desperation into the conflict, and makes the players better manage their squadron builds better. 



#15 jskinny

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:09 AM

Sorry for the double post, the pop-up blocker was giving me a fit and I hit the button twice. 



#16 MilesD37

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:29 AM

100 points max- i've played 2 games over 100, and they were not as fun… with the falcon or slave 1 out there there you shouldn't "add points" so you can maintain same # of ships… the falcon and slave 1 will be worth 2-3 ships in and of itself



#17 voidstate

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:54 AM

jskinny said:

I actually think going up to 100pt is a bit much.  We’ve been playing at the 50-75pt  range and it seems to make the game move faster, adds a little more desperation into the conflict, and makes the players better manage their squadron builds better. 

I agree with this completely. I was really looking forward to 100 points but I think I may actually prefer the games I played with fewer ships.

The sweet spots for me are 35 points for quick, furious skirmishes and 70 points for more complex battles. The 100 point games actually hit their stride when yo get to around 70 points, I reckon.

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