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Starting Acquisitions; broken?


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#1 Plushy

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:09 PM

 Starting heretics can automatically succeed on a number of acquisitions equal to their Infamy Bonus at character creation as long as the penalty is -10 or less. Since the average heretic is going to have 20~ Infamy, that's two acquisitions.

An item gains a +10 to the acquisition for being a single item. Very Rare gives a -10.

Can a player acquire a Power Sword or a Plasma Gun, then? A human Power Fist? Light Power Armour? Hell, you can grab 1,000 Lasguns!

This seems crazy to me!

I can practically be Cypher at character creation with this!


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#2 ShadowRay

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:36 PM

If you compare it to some items with which characters start game from archeotype it isn't broken at all. CSM start with power armour, bolt weapons, renegate starts with power weapon, sorceror with froce blade/staff etc. This is quite high level game, unlike DH where starting guardsman barely knows with which end of the gun he should shoot.



#3 Fgdsfg

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:54 PM

Yeah, I don't see the problem either. Black Crusade is "higher" rank (disregarding the rules differences) than, say, Rogue Trader. And in Rogue Trader, you get a single item as long as the Acquisition is 0 or less.

Extremely Rare Availability in Rogue Trader is -30.
Single Quantity is +30.

So that's one Extremely Rare item per person.
Or, since Significant Quantity (5,000) is -20, and Common Availability is +20, that'd be 5,000 Lasguns.

Or you could go for the option of outfitting your entire retinue: Why not 5 Heavy Bolters?

But you get the picture.

And Black Crusade is even higher than that, so I don't see why this'd be a problem.


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#4 Cifer

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:25 AM

I'm not seeing the problem either. It's not like you'll be able to overthrow the Imperium armed with sticks and stones…



#5 HappyDaze

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:54 AM

Fgdsfg said:

Yeah, I don't see the problem either. Black Crusade is "higher" rank (disregarding the rules differences) than, say, Rogue Trader. And in Rogue Trader, you get a single item as long as the Acquisition is 0 or less.

Extremely Rare Availability in Rogue Trader is -30.
Single Quantity is +30.

So that's one Extremely Rare item per person.
Or, since Significant Quantity (5,000) is -20, and Common Availability is +20, that'd be 5,000 Lasguns.

Or you could go for the option of outfitting your entire retinue: Why not 5 Heavy Bolters?

But you get the picture.

And Black Crusade is even higher than that, so I don't see why this'd be a problem.

In RT you can only take the single item option for you free starting Acquisition. This means that you cannot have one member take 5 suits of carapace, another take 5 heavy bolters, another take 5 sets of special ammo, another take 5 force fields, and finally another take 5 of something and then they all share everything.


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#6 Musclewizard

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:01 PM

HappyDaze said:

 

In RT you can only take the single item option for you free starting Acquisition. This means that you cannot have one member take 5 suits of carapace, another take 5 heavy bolters, another take 5 sets of special ammo, another take 5 force fields, and finally another take 5 of something and then they all share everything.

This man knows what he's talking about. The starting acquisition represents some important and probably powerful item that your character aquired for himself though his life. It not like all the PCs were always part of the same group that they form now so it would be highly unreasonable for soem guy to have 5 heavy bolters. Rather he'd probably have one really good quality heavy bolter.



#7 Fgdsfg

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:45 AM

HappyDaze said:

 

In RT you can only take the single item option for you free starting Acquisition. This means that you cannot have one member take 5 suits of carapace, another take 5 heavy bolters, another take 5 sets of special ammo, another take 5 force fields, and finally another take 5 of something and then they all share everything.

Agch! You're right. I even double-checked to make sure. Shame on me. :|


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#8 Asoral

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:11 AM

 And its also the same in BC, so I don't really see the point in crying about this. Granted, with the right combination you can start with a Terminator armour, but then again that is something that I would as a GM say a big NOPE to, unless it fitted the campaign we were playing.



#9 Reverend mort

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:57 AM

 Terminator armor isn't that big a deal, really. The extra AP it offers is rather handily offset by the lowered movement and reduced dodge it comes with, and while the ability to wield certain weapons more effectively is nice, that's only a good thing if you got the weapons, which you probably don't. And even if you do, still not that terrible.



#10 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:02 PM

Asoral said:

 

 And its also the same in BC, so I don't really see the point in crying about this. Granted, with the right combination you can start with a Terminator armour, but then again that is something that I would as a GM say a big NOPE to, unless it fitted the campaign we were playing.

 

 

How can you do that? Terminator suits are Near Unique. You can't even get regular Power Armor normally, you have to settle for Light PA unless you're a Space Marine.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#11 Cifer

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:06 AM

According to the FAQ, Ancient Warrior applies to Legion Armour as well. So…

Near Unique: -50
Single Item: +10
Ancient Warrior: +10
Pride (Wealth): +20

-> -10 and thus eligible.

 

Also, I agree with Reverend Mort. Termi Armour works only within very specific circumstances - a head-on, brutal, no-holds-barred, no-movement, straight-up combat. If the heretics have to be stealthy, forget it. If they need to be quick, forget it. If they have to get through a slim passage (that can't be widened by judicious application of terminator arms), forget it. So if a character wants to "waste" his one special acquisition on a very situational, if powerful, piece of gear: Have fun with it!



#12 Blood Pact

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:43 PM

One of those little flaws in the free-form system, that things occasionally line up like this and make for interesting syngergies.

But like Reverend Mort and Cipher said, Terminator Armour is so situational that it's not gamebreaking in this instance, like such stacking sometimes can be.



#13 BangBangTequila

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 04:34 PM

 I don't see any problem with a character having access to one of almost anything in the book. In fact, i believe in a more free-form approach, following the skill and talent allocation: Allow them to exchange gear for equivalent rarities (pending gm approval, of course). A character should be well geared, because otherwise a heretic of his stature would not have lasted very long!



#14 Blood Pact

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:21 AM

Being able to min-max stack your character, so that you are potentially OPed at character creation IS a problem though. Not the inherent flexibility of the free-form system.

But I'm constantly getting the feeling around here that I'm the only one who's ever played anything by White Wolf, and thus, most of the people talking about how great a free-form system is (or how publishing one set of main core rules, with every 'splat'/gameline building off them, like the nWoD, would be better).

Because I am quite experienced with their games, and because of that I know just how catastrophically a free-form system can break down. It really isn't always a case where it's better in every way, than the mean ol' restrictive level-based system.



#15 blackfocker

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:02 PM

No, Blood Pact, you arn't the only WoD player on here.  And I agree that both free form games and level based games are good.  But also speaking as a GM that has run many different game with many different systems, all I can say is that every game has a way to be broken.  And it's the GM's job to nip it in the but.

However, back on topic, I can see why some people would say that the accquisitions at char-gen can be over powered.  But I don't feel that way.  Look at the whole terminator armour thing.  To get better than poor craftsmenship you need to use the Pride of Wealth, and then use both of your other accquisitions to just equip the armour with weapons.

Also, as a side note: it's a bit of a grey area as to if you can take multiple item of the same type.  I know that you can in BC, as an example is someone doing just that to get a limited supply of demo charges (you don't get a limitless supply like in RT)



#16 MILLANDSON

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:24 PM

Blood Pact said:

Being able to min-max stack your character, so that you are potentially OPed at character creation IS a problem though. Not the inherent flexibility of the free-form system.

But I'm constantly getting the feeling around here that I'm the only one who's ever played anything by White Wolf, and thus, most of the people talking about how great a free-form system is (or how publishing one set of main core rules, with every 'splat'/gameline building off them, like the nWoD, would be better).

Because I am quite experienced with their games, and because of that I know just how catastrophically a free-form system can break down. It really isn't always a case where it's better in every way, than the mean ol' restrictive level-based system.

I'm a long time nWoD player (it was my first RPG actually), and I still think it's better than level-based stuff. With freeform systems, all you need to do as a  GM is set your own limits for what is suitable to take at char-gen, be it skills at a particular level, or items/weapons/etc, but you are free to make characters with any combination of skills you want. With most level/class based games I know, the only way to really work as a character is to min-max and have dump stats you don't increase because your character will never be as good as other people in it. You are pigeon-holed into a role, unlike with free-form systems.

This isn't even taking into account that, generally, with level-based games, in my experience, players have the stats/class come first, and the characterisation later (which is restricted, often, by what class you chose). Free-form games allow you to make up a character, with a unique backstory, and be able to make him without being restricted by 'rogues are for sneaking and trap-finding' (which is reinforced by the mechanics) and the like.

So yea, in my opinion, free-form games are inherently more customisable, and therefore better in pretty much every way, over class/level based games.


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#17 Cryhavok

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:27 AM

I also played WoD extensively. We tried to break it. Every time we came close bad stuff happened. We litterally could not min/max like it was a video game or our weaknesses would get us dead. In a non-video game the GM can hadle such things so it shouldn't be a problem. If they are letting their players run rampant through the system, then that's on them.



#18 crisaron

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:48 AM

DM: You want a terminator armor at your level of power? A.k.a. LVL 1 wa

PLayer: YESSSSsssss…. my pracious!!!!

DM : OK

Player:  WOOT my PRECIOUSssss!!!!!

DM: as you open the door there is a mighty wariror of khorne with a deamonic power axe and a nasty mastercrafted demaonic possessed plasma pitol, yelling"Mine! the Gods said it could be mine!!! I only need to take your head off!"

Player: …

DM : Well a terminator armor is like a relic right? and that guy as been wanting one for a while… if all of you guys really put your self into it you can win it…

Player 2 : I look around.

DM : Well that is the problem, you see an army of champions runnign up the hilll yelling "No its mine!!!!", "Mine"…

PLayer: but it's mine!!!

DM: The gods gave you a relic can you hold on to it?

PLayer: I quit

DM: terminator armor problem solved…



#19 Reverend mort

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:27 PM

crisaron said:

 

DM: You want a terminator armor at your level of power? A.k.a. LVL 1 wa

PLayer: YESSSSsssss…. my pracious!!!!

DM : OK

Player:  WOOT my PRECIOUSssss!!!!!

DM: as you open the door there is a mighty wariror of khorne with a deamonic power axe and a nasty mastercrafted demaonic possessed plasma pitol, yelling"Mine! the Gods said it could be mine!!! I only need to take your head off!"

Player: …

DM : Well a terminator armor is like a relic right? and that guy as been wanting one for a while… if all of you guys really put your self into it you can win it…

Player 2 : I look around.

DM : Well that is the problem, you see an army of champions runnign up the hilll yelling "No its mine!!!!", "Mine"…

PLayer: but it's mine!!!

DM: The gods gave you a relic can you hold on to it?

PLayer: I quit

DM: terminator armor problem solved…

 



I'd want to play in that game. I'd never have to fight a well armored opponent in my life. I just tell people he has Terminator armor and apparently Khorne berserkers with Daemonic Power Weapons AND Daemonic Plasma Weapons come and kill him for me… 

Because those things ******* grow on trees.

 



#20 crisaron

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:05 AM

I admit that was an extrem example but the way I see BC, it's full of mean poeple looking to get more POWA and a little known chaos marine with a mighty terminator armor as to be ready to defend is stuff at every corner.

 

 






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