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Heavy Bolter and Full Auto Questions


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#1 Rennrh

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:26 AM

1. Can you make a called shot with a heavy bolter?

Called Shot
Type: Full Action
The attacker declares a location on his target (Head, Body, Left Arm, Right Arm, Left Leg, or Right Leg) and makes a Hard (–20) Weapon Skill Test or a Hard (–20) Ballistic Skill Test.
If he succeeds, he skips the Determine Hit Location step of the attack and instead hits the declared location.

The discussion revolves around the first shot fired.

2. Can you take the aim action with a heavy bolter or any other full auto attack for that matter?

Aim
Type: Half Action or Full Action
Aiming as a Half Action grants a +10 bonus to the character’s next attack, while aiming as a Full Action grants a +20 bonus to the character’s next attack.
The next Action the Aiming character performs must be an attack or the benefits of Aiming are lost.
Aiming benefits are also lost if the character performs a Reaction before making his attack.
 


 



#2 Decessor

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 12:16 PM

1. Unless you are using hellfire rounds, the heavy bolter doesn't have a single shot mode. Called shot and full auto are seperate actions in Deathwatch and cannot be combined.  This was not the case in the Dark Heresy rules.

2. No problem with aiming before a full auto attack. But without the autostabilised trait it's best left for ambushes or if a target is incredibly difficult to hit since it eats actions.



#3 herichimo

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:15 PM

Decessor has it right concerning the rules.

'Nuff said!



#4 Rennrh

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:34 AM

I understand what you are saying, but where does it state that this: "called shot and full auto are seperate actions in Deathwatch and cannot be combined."

I can hear the question now, how can the aim action be combined with full auto but not called shot?

I would like a rule or something official to back this up.



#5 Charmander

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

Rennrh said:

I understand what you are saying, but where does it state that this: "called shot and full auto are seperate actions in Deathwatch and cannot be combined."

I can hear the question now, how can the aim action be combined with full auto but not called shot?

I would like a rule or something official to back this up.

I don't have the rules in front of me but if I recall correctly, the descriptor of Called Shot has it combined with a standard attack.  Standard attacks are single shots.  Full Auto attacks are where you fire full atuo.  They are two different, non-combinable action types.

Aim simply states it benefits your next attack, which allows it to be combined with either a called shot (and thus a standard attack) or a full auto burst (a full auto attack).

 



#6 Rennrh

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:17 AM

I listed the called shot information at the beginning of this post. However, I didn't include the description from the combat table which says:

"Attack a specific location on the target with a –20 to WS or BS."

As we know, the multiple hits table for semi and full auto starts in a specific location and shows where the additional hits go from there. So why couldn't he hit a starting point?

 Also, as far as time goes for the action:

"Additionally, the Auto-Senses make the Called Shot Action (see page 238) into a Half Action."

I understand that common sense should dictate that it is a standard attack, which means no semi or full auto, but the rules don't back that up. To add to it, the player in question is developing his Devastator around talents that lessen the penalty for called shots, such as Deadeye Shot and Sharpshooter.



#7 herichimo

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:18 PM

…NVM all this noise!

I'm not going to try to convince someone who may or may not want to listen to reason. I'll just send a question to TIm and get it answered officially.



#8 KommissarK

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:13 AM

Then the player in question should focus on using weapons that are not FA/SA, like Missile Launchers, Lascannons, or Multi-meltas.

As far as Called Shot goes:

It is an action.

As a part of the Called Shot action itself, it makes an attack (i.e. when you spend the half action to take a called shot, you shoot something). Called Shot is specifically a single shot deal. It is basically a modified Standard Attack, as per the wording of the action itself.

Full Auto is a separate attack action.

Aim is not an attack action, but rather something that provides a bonus to the next attack.

 

Whats funny, is that from a cynical metagaming point of view, called shot is kinda worthless. Most enemies have equal armour on most body locations, and shots to any given location technically only matter if they get into the crit tables anyway. At which point the enemy is pretty much dead. With something like Full Auto, you're far better off losing the penalty and getting that extra hit in than applying it to some specific location.



#9 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:38 PM

KommissarK said:

 

Whats funny, is that from a cynical metagaming point of view, called shot is kinda worthless. Most enemies have equal armour on most body locations, and shots to any given location technically only matter if they get into the crit tables anyway. At which point the enemy is pretty much dead. With something like Full Auto, you're far better off losing the penalty and getting that extra hit in than applying it to some specific location.

I say thee triple nay.

Called Shot is what allows you to target parts of the body that are not behind cover, and any non-halfwit is going to be behind cover.



#10 Decessor

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:19 AM

Except the crazies, those charging forward to maim the killteam or those who are caught out in the open.



#11 Charmander

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:11 PM

As with the last time the 'called shot' question came up, I still say it's a useful mode of firing.  In the case of cover, obviously, and in the case of individuals.  I can say from a GM's perspective that I've run a fair number of elites or masters that have different head armor values- Ork Warbosses or Chaos Marines that go (as some PC's do) helmetless. 

Outside of the core rules, I prefer No1's ork stats to those in the book, and the body versus arm and head stats on those are also quite different.  I also force called shots if you want to hit an elite in the middle of a horde as well.

That said, outside of certain elites and cover, I do have to agree with KommissarK in that most enemies detailed in the book have a fairly insignificant difference between AP levels across their bodies, in which case the penalties to hit (or the XP to avoid the penalty) would not be worth it.  It's useful, but it's not the end all be all.



#12 Rennrh

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:53 PM

Herichimo,

Did you get an official answer from Tim yet?

I am listening to reason, thus my previous common sense statement. Also, in my game I have already ruled that you cannot perform a called shot with a FA/SA attack. What I would like to see is something added to the errata to make this an open and shut case. Instead of stating an attack, change the wording to standard attack or something similar.



#13 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:35 PM

It is an open and shut case. Called Shot and Full Auto Burst are different actions. Two actions cannot be performed simultaneously.

This does not correspond to Aim, because Aim and any attack are different actions that take place one after the other. Aim sets the attack up; it is not part of it.

I think you may be confused by a misunderstanding that you can Aim and Full Auto in the same turn. You cannot, without Autostabilized. To Aim a Full Auto attack, you have to do it in your previous turn, in which you will not fire.

In short, Called Shots can only be performed single shot.



#14 Rennrh

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

 Outstanding, sounds good to me. Thanks for all of your input!



#15 herichimo

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:55 AM

Rennrh said:

Herichimo,

Did you get an official answer from Tim yet?

I am listening to reason, thus my previous common sense statement. Also, in my game I have already ruled that you cannot perform a called shot with a FA/SA attack. What I would like to see is something added to the errata to make this an open and shut case. Instead of stating an attack, change the wording to standard attack or something similar.

No,

Its hit or miss sometimes when they get busy. I usually give them a week or two before trying again.

I know its been brought up and I'm fairly certain it was clarified called shot only worked as a standard attack, but I can't point to any actual references for that despite some searching. Which is why I decided to delete my very long response and simply send in a question.



#16 Rennrh

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:25 AM

No worries and they have accepted the fact that it is a standard attack.






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