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Does OL keep his hand after scenario?


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#1 LEGA

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:18 PM

Hello all!

Does OL keep his cards (hand) that left after scenario to next scenario? Or he should shuffle them to his draw deck and get new hand by the number of heroes?

Thanks for answers.



#2 Robin

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:42 PM

Hi,

He only keeps his hand as is between encounters.

Between quests - in a campaign - he often can buy new cards, and build his deck (min 15 cards). Anyway, the deck is reshuffled again before the start of a new quest.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#3 LEGA

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:55 PM

That is mentioned in rules:

"2. Cleanup: The overlord combines his draw and discard pile into one deck." (p.20)

"7. Set Up Quest: The overlord player should remember to shuffle his Overlord deck, including any new cards just purchased, to create a new deck before drawing his starting hand." (p.20)

So draw (pile), discard pile and new just purchased cards. Nothing said about cards that left in hand at the end of scenario.



#4 Triu

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:00 AM

Page 20, The Campaign Phase: "7. Set Up Quest: The players begin setting up the next quest following the standard rules for setting up a quest. The overlord player should remember to shuffle his Overlord deck, including any new cards just purchased, to create a new deck before drawing his starting hand."

You left part out.  I would say that standard rules for setting up a quest & drawing his starting hand mean that the OL gets a new hand of cards.  It doesn't tell you to "add to (or discard from) your hand, drawing up to the number of heroes".  [You could house rule something like that to carry over cards, but you start with "a number of Overlord cards equal to the number of heroes".]

At the end of the quest you can return the cards in your hand to the face-down deck (so the heroes don't see what wasn't played & second guess you), add them to the discard pile (so you can taunt the heroes with the mayhem you didn't unleash), or burn them (use it or lose it house rule), but you start with a new hand when starting a new quest, IMO.

 



#5 LEGA

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:29 AM

Triu said:

Page 20, The Campaign Phase: "7. Set Up Quest: The players begin setting up the next quest following the standard rules for setting up a quest. The overlord player should remember to shuffle his Overlord deck, including any new cards just purchased, to create a new deck before drawing his starting hand."

You left part out.  I would say that standard rules for setting up a quest & drawing his starting hand mean that the OL gets a new hand of cards.  It doesn't tell you to "add to (or discard from) your hand, drawing up to the number of heroes".  [You could house rule something like that to carry over cards, but you start with "a number of Overlord cards equal to the number of heroes".]

At the end of the quest you can return the cards in your hand to the face-down deck (so the heroes don't see what wasn't played & second guess you), add them to the discard pile (so you can taunt the heroes with the mayhem you didn't unleash), or burn them (use it or lose it house rule), but you start with a new hand when starting a new quest, IMO.

1. Standard rules says that OL creates his deck and draw a number of cards equal to the number of heroes (draw = take/get). No "up to" wording.

2. There are always draw pile, discard pile and hand. "The overlord combines his draw and discard pile into one deck." (p.20) Nothing about hand in rules.



#6 Flatusjae

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 05:10 AM

Common sense can be used here.

If the rules say that when starting new quest, you do the same stuff as you normally do, the rules presume that you start a completly new quest, not continue campaign. Campaign rules add the XP purchase cards.

 

If the hand would be always left as it is between campaign quests, it would create very unbalanced situations where overlord could stack all cards in one quest, and then unleash everything in one go in the next quest to completly decimate heroes. Just think how easy it would be for OL to get all draw cards to his/her hand in campaign. If some crazy OL would want to powergame like this, he could just stack all the cards untill the Final quest, and unleash everything there, winning the game even though he probably lost every other quest. And I quess everyone can agree how incredibly boring that would be.

 

If you think you need an edge as OL, then keeping your hand would be allright as an houserule.



#7 Robin

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:29 AM

 The OL set up is explained on p.5.

The two first steps (choosing the monsters and setting up the quest) are not questioned and applied during campaign as written.

The steps 3 and 4 should be applied the same way (excepted when the differences of the campaign game are underlined).

3. Create Overlord Deck: The overlord player shuffles the 15 basic Overlord cards to create his Overlord deck.
When playing the basic game, all other Overlord cards are returned to the game box. These cards are only used if playing a campaign or if
using the Epic Play variant (see “Campaign Rules” and “Epic Play” on page 19).


4. Draw Overlord Cards: The overlord player draws a number of Overlord cards equal to the number of heroes into his hand (see “Overlord Cards” on page 16).“Overlord Cards” on page 16).

Nowhere is it written that the OL keeps the cards he had in his hand during a previous quest.

The rules are specific when it comes to keeping cards in hand.

That is, between encounters (p. 18), where the special step "• The overlord player keeps his current hand of Overlord cards." 

A rules interpretation principle is COWTRA: concentrate on what the rules allow.

Otherwise, you could ask if the OL can burn his cards or eat his monsters between quests…

The rules only allow keeping cards in hand between encounters.
It is not allowed otherwise.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#8 Triu

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:43 AM

LEGA said:

1. Standard rules says that OL creates his deck and draw a number of cards equal to the number of heroes (draw = take/get). No "up to" wording.

 

2. There are always draw pile, discard pile and hand. "The overlord combines his draw and discard pile into one deck." (p.20) Nothing about hand in rules.

 

1. We agree that the rules do not say "up to".  I said that would be a house rule.  The OL "draws his starting hand" -- I assumed draw meant take/get, but if you want you can get out your crayons and illustrate your own cards.

2. There is a lot about "hand" in the rules, just not in the section you're quoting.  Are you saying that the OL should have a current hand from the previous quest, as well as the starting hand that the rules tell him to draw? 

Page 22, Travel: "Before travel begins, the overlord player may customize his deck. He then draws his starting hand of Overlord cards—one card per hero. These cards are not played during the travel step, but may be affected by certain events. These Overlord cards are the overlord player’s starting hand for the upcoming quest, so he does not draw any additional cards at the beginning of the quest."

Do travel events only affect the starting hand, and the current hand is immune? Are these two hands combined at some point? The rules don't say, although it does say on page 11 that "Heroes have two hands."  If not, I guess you end up with a current hand from each previous quest. By the time you reach the Finale, the OL will have 8 current hands -- maybe it should be changed to Octopus-lord.



#9 Robin

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:33 AM

BTW, note that there are no scenarios in Descent.

Only encounters and quests.

So the OP wording is already wrong in itself.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#10 LEGA

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:11 PM

Thanks everyone for reply.

Flatusjae said:

If the hand would be always left as it is between campaign quests, it would create very unbalanced situations where overlord could stack all cards in one quest, and then unleash everything in one go in the next quest to completly decimate heroes. Just think how easy it would be for OL to get all draw cards to his/her hand in campaign. If some crazy OL would want to powergame like this, he could just stack all the cards untill the Final quest, and unleash everything there, winning the game even though he probably lost every other quest. And I quess everyone can agree how incredibly boring that would be.


I think that this point of view is that I wanted to hear.

Robin said:

A rules interpretation principle is COWTRA: concentrate on what the rules allow.

Otherwise, you could ask if the OL can burn his cards or eat his monsters between quests…

Triu said:

Do travel events only affect the starting hand, and the current hand is immune? Are these two hands combined at some point? The rules don't say, although it does say on page 11 that "Heroes have two hands." If not, I guess you end up with a current hand from each previous quest. By the time you reach the Finale, the OL will have 8 current hands -- maybe it should be changed to Octopus-lord.

What a nonsense. Drawing cards was always just drawing cards to your hand(s ).

Robin said:

BTW, note that there are no scenarios in Descent.

Only encounters and quests.

So the OP wording is already wrong in itself.

You've caught me!






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