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Do dead Villagers increase OL hand?


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#1 King Ker

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:52 AM

Hi all!

Yesterday night OL 'killed' two Villagers during Castle Daerion #1 Encounter, he said he 'had' to draw a card each time he killed one of them. Since they are treated as hero figures…Is he right? I have been searching for an answer though other forums, and 'they' say my OL cheated us.

During Ecounter #2 Sir Alric Farrow 'grabbed' Sir Palamon and tossed him like an old rug using his Overpower ability. Since our OL used Word of Misery Alric inflicted 3 damages to Palamon each time he used Overpower. By the way, OL said he could use Overpower twice a turn because Alric has 2 action per turn. We all thought that any card with an arrow had to be exhausted to be activated, so… Can anyone, OL or Heroes, re-use any arrowed ability/card  while having avaiable actions during a turn?

I would really appreciate any possitive answer on heroes side, much more than any negative one though it would be fair anyway.

 

Thanks!

 

King Ker.



#2 plolock

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:09 AM

 Concerning question numero dos, 

I am quite sure that when a mosnter uses an arrow ability that costs an action, it counts as that monsters attack action that turn. Which means that no, he couldnt use it twice. And the only way a monster can attack more than once, is if it has Ravage as a special rule (certain conversion kit monsters) or the OL plays a frenzy card.



#3 schmoo34

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:01 AM

plolock said:

 Concerning question numero dos, 

I am quite sure that when a mosnter uses an arrow ability that costs an action, it counts as that monsters attack action that turn. Which means that no, he couldnt use it twice. And the only way a monster can attack more than once, is if it has Ravage as a special rule (certain conversion kit monsters) or the OL plays a frenzy card.

 

I second that.  A monster gets two actions.  1) Move and only move.  2) Attack or use a skill.  The elementals come to mind…if you use the "air" skill, you don't really attack the heroes, you just become invincible but heroes can walk through you.  That is your attack for the round and you don't get to do two elemental actions.

 

As for your first question, you confused me a bit.  But if you are referring to heroes using a skill that has an arrow, yes, they can use it twice because they can attack twice.  If you are referring to an OL, then no…it is the same answer as your #2 question.



#4 rokenisdodelijk

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:25 AM

Hello!

What about the first question? Does the Overlord get cards killing a villager?     Seems that the Overlord gets a huge advantage doing that, killing the four villager means four extra cards for the next level and the heroes get 0 militians…. 

 

 



#5 Terah

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:38 AM

 For number 1 - I don't think the OL should get a card for defeating any NPC. Even though the quest says to "treat them like heroes" I think it means "treat them like heroes in some ways - but not in every way". If your OL insists they are exactly like heroes in all ways then also they would
a) place search tokens.
b) progress to the second encounter and onto later quests.
c) be able to receive equipment.
In what exact ways should they be treated "like heroes"? I don't know and FFG hasn't told us. But I don't think "in all ways" is correct, and I don't think it should include drawing an OL card.

For number 2 - I disagree with the earlier answers. Firstly the "arrow" on abilities mean they cost an action, it doesn't mean the action is exhausted. This is detailed all in pages 7-11 of the rules. The arrow does look like the "tap" icon from MtG, it is an unfortunate coincidence. Secondly, There is a limit on monster actions that cause an attack. Overpower doesn't use the procedures that define an "Attack" on page 9 of the rules, so IMO Overpower is not an attack and can be performed multiple times in a turn.



#6 jjcole

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:39 AM

 

 

schmoo34 said:

 

I second that.  A monster gets two actions.  1) Move and only move.  2) Attack or use a skill.  The elementals come to mind…if you use the "air" skill, you don't really attack the heroes, you just become invincible but heroes can walk through you.  That is your attack for the round and you don't get to do two elemental actions. 

 

 

A monster gets two actions which can be any combination of any available actions (including opening/closing a door, using non-attack skills, etc.) with the single restriction that only one action may be an attack action. There seems to be some debate over which skills count as using up an attack action, but if I recall correctly "Air" does not in any way constitute an attack and thus would not use up the monster's available attack action. It's more things like "Sweep" that are unclear.

There is definitely no reason to think that a monster must use one action to move and only to move, or that a second action has to be used for an attack or a skill when it can also be used for another move, open/close door, etc.



#7 schmoo34

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:15 AM

I should also clarify regarding heroes using a skill twice (with an arrow).  Most cards, if not all of them, have text that say "exhaust" and in that case, you can only do the skill once.  But if it is a skill on the herosheet or somehow not exhausted, you can do it twice.



#8 mustardayonnaiz

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:38 AM

Terah said:

 For number 1 - I don't think the OL should get a card for defeating any NPC. Even though the quest says to "treat them like heroes" I think it means "treat them like heroes in some ways - but not in every way". If your OL insists they are exactly like heroes in all ways then also they would
a) place search tokens.
b) progress to the second encounter and onto later quests.
c) be able to receive equipment.
In what exact ways should they be treated "like heroes"? I don't know and FFG hasn't told us. But I don't think "in all ways" is correct, and I don't think it should include drawing an OL card.

For number 2 - I disagree with the earlier answers. Firstly the "arrow" on abilities mean they cost an action, it doesn't mean the action is exhausted. This is detailed all in pages 7-11 of the rules. The arrow does look like the "tap" icon from MtG, it is an unfortunate coincidence. Secondly, There is a limit on monster actions that cause an attack. Overpower doesn't use the procedures that define an "Attack" on page 9 of the rules, so IMO Overpower is not an attack and can be performed multiple times in a turn.

I agree with this also. 

In regards to monsters actions, another person on the forum suggested as long as the monster doesn't have to roll the blue "attack" die, then the action isn't considered an attack. So the master ettin may throw twice in one turn. 



#9 Dam

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:06 AM

OL gets his card for knocking out a hero, but villagers aren't knocked out.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#10 Terah

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:41 PM

Dam said:

OL gets his card for knocking out a hero, but villagers aren't knocked out.

I agree with you, but I think you've missed something. Heroes get knocked out when defeated. NPCs are treated like heroes so when they are defeated they could be defeated like a hero and be… knocked out. Fantastic (not). The rule that NPCs cannot ever regain HPs would stop them being revived.



#11 uppTagg

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:37 PM

Terah said:

 

Dam said:

 

OL gets his card for knocking out a hero, but villagers aren't knocked out.

 

 

I agree with you, but I think you've missed something. Heroes get knocked out when defeated. NPCs are treated like heroes so when they are defeated they could be defeated like a hero and be… knocked out. Fantastic (not). The rule that NPCs cannot ever regain HPs would stop them being revived.

 

 

Starting with the first question. As has been said before in this thread, Overpower is not generating a monster "Attack" which means it doesn't count towards the 1 attack action a monster has available that turn. Same with Throw, Eliza's charm etc.. they can all be used twice on a turn.

As for the other question. I think Dam said it well! Quest states "treat them as hero figures with the following exceptions: .." the exception being they can't recover hearts, otherwise they're just the same as a hero which means they get knocked out/defeated (but can't stand up/be revived due to not being able to recover hearts) which means OL should get a card.

The reason I've come to this interpretation is because back when we first played the game I argued at first that OL should get a card for killing the reanimate, but the counter-argument there was that he's just treated as a figure with a couple of special rules, not a HERO figure. I agreed that this was correct.

Conclusion, going by RAW, I'd say OL gets a card when killing villagers.

 



#12 Dam

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:19 PM

At least in Castle Daerion, the villagers defeated are removed from the board, which doesn't abide by the knocked out rules:

"When a hero is defeated, he immediately suffers fatigue up to his Stamina,
damage up to his Health (if defeated by some other effect), and the
controlling player removes his figure from the map, replacing it with
one of his hero tokens." (p. 15)

www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/848768/does-the-ol-draw-a-card-when-a-familar-or-villager


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#13 uppTagg

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:36 PM

Dam said:

At least in Castle Daerion, the villagers defeated are removed from the board, which doesn't abide by the knocked out rules:

"When a hero is defeated, he immediately suffers fatigue up to his Stamina,
damage up to his Health (if defeated by some other effect), and the
controlling player removes his figure from the map, replacing it with
one of his hero tokens." (p. 15)

www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/848768/does-the-ol-draw-a-card-when-a-familar-or-villager

 

Cheers for the link. Brings up a couple of good points. I love the finale argument! ^^



#14 King Ker

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 07:09 AM

Thanks everyone!

It seems 'Descent 2' needs a bigger FAQ book. We, my group of friends, are engaged into a discussion battle to determine how it will be made from now on. It seems our actual OL, first on this new enviroment, does not like much what has been posted here. Most of the answers go in the same direction: NO card for OL when killing NPC.

Thanks again guys!…and sorry about any typping mistake. English is not my primary language. ( OL's Hand )

King Ker.






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