Jump to content



Photo

Another Dark Eldar Question


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 HappyDaze

HappyDaze

    Member

  • Members
  • 5,895 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:41 AM

I have been reading on the Dark Eldar fairly extensively since the release of The Soul Reaver. I've noticed that Kabals can vary in size and power, but all seem to have only a single Archon. Or, at least that's what I thought. I've found a reference that Asdrubael Vect's own Kabal, the Kabal of the Black Heart, has at least one other Archon that acts as Vect's lieutenant. This seems to conflict with what I've read of the Kabals, so I'm wondering if this is just a bit of old fluff or if it should be rationalized in one of two ways:

1) There is only one Archon in a Kabal. Many of the most powerful Archons retain the services of lesser Kabals by holding influence over their Archons.  Surely Vect can exert enough influence that he can get others to do things for him without directly using the Kabal of the Black Heart. The reference to Vect having another Archon of the Kabal of the Black Heart doing his dirty work should instead say that he had an allied Archon and Kabal attending to the task.

2) There is only one Archon in a Kabal. Dracons serve in the role of lieutenants and lead missions that do not require the attention of the Archon. The reference to Vect having another Archon of the Kabal of the Black Heart doing his dirty work should instead say that he had a Dracon attending to the task.

Any opinions?


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody.


#2 HappyDaze

HappyDaze

    Member

  • Members
  • 5,895 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:34 PM

I found my answer for only $1.00 on the used book shelf! A copy of the old Dark Eldar Codex shows that Dracons were indeed meant to fill the lieutenant/sub-commander roles within a Kabal. The new Codex makes them into the equivalent of a Sybarite for Trueborn squads, and this really devalues them. Far better in my eyes if Kabalite Trueborn are led by a Sybarite Trueborn and the rank of Dracon is returned to being something higher rather than a glorified squad leader. I feel that the same should be done with the Syren rank in Wych Cults too. What I won't be taking up from the old Codex are the Wych Cult titles of Wych Archite and Wych Dracite.


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody.


#3 Cynical Cat

Cynical Cat

    Member

  • Members
  • 646 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:22 PM

HappyDaze said:

I found my answer for only $1.00 on the used book shelf! A copy of the old Dark Eldar Codex shows that Dracons were indeed meant to fill the lieutenant/sub-commander roles within a Kabal. The new Codex makes them into the equivalent of a Sybarite for Trueborn squads, and this really devalues them. Far better in my eyes if Kabalite Trueborn are led by a Sybarite Trueborn and the rank of Dracon is returned to being something higher rather than a glorified squad leader. I feel that the same should be done with the Syren rank in Wych Cults too. What I won't be taking up from the old Codex are the Wych Cult titles of Wych Archite and Wych Dracite.

 

That's not quite.  While it does list Dracons as squad leaders for the Trueborn, the entry on the Archon lists Dracons as lieutenants of the Archon.  Furthermore the novel Path of the Renegade confirms that status.  So it isn't that Dracons are defined as the leader of Trueborn squads, but that Trueborn squads represent a well trained, well equipped elite whose leader will be a Dracon.



#4 Obetor

Obetor

    Member

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:24 AM

I agree on what you are saying but I would not use Path of the Renegade as a source. It’s a okay book but it has terribly fluff.

 

- Erik



#5 Blood Pact

Blood Pact

    Member

  • Members
  • 869 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 05:54 AM

Eh, it's hardly worse than how I see people frequently trying to quote Rogue Trader or 2nd Edition as if it were still some definitive authority.



#6 signoftheserpent

signoftheserpent

    Member

  • Members
  • 791 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 06:06 AM

I don't recall any Dracons in that book. Morr was an Incubus and the rest all led their own kabals as archons.



#7 Cynical Cat

Cynical Cat

    Member

  • Members
  • 646 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:57 AM

signoftheserpent said:

I don't recall any Dracons in that book. Morr was an Incubus and the rest all led their own kabals as archons.

 

Sindiel is made a dracon and given command of a corsair squadron along with a retinue of warriors.  Page 366.



#8 Cynical Cat

Cynical Cat

    Member

  • Members
  • 646 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:58 AM

Obetor said:

I agree on what you are saying but I would not use Path of the Renegade as a source. It’s a okay book but it has terribly fluff.

 

- Erik

 

What's terrible about the fluff? 



#9 Thaddux

Thaddux

    Member

  • Members
  • 85 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:42 PM

I was under the impression that Vect was the leader of all Dark Eldar, therefore, may consider himself above the rank of Archon.  Could be wrong though.



#10 HappyDaze

HappyDaze

    Member

  • Members
  • 5,895 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 04:09 PM

Thaddux said:

I was under the impression that Vect was the leader of all Dark Eldar, therefore, may consider himself above the rank of Archon.  Could be wrong though.

Vect rules Commorragh - mainly through fear and manipulation-  but does not precisely rule all Dark Eldar. There are dissidents within Commorragh, but they mostly keep their opposition subtle. There are also groups of Dark Eldar that exist primarily outside the core society of Commorragh, like the Kabals seen in The Soul Reaver.


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody.


#11 Obetor

Obetor

    Member

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:28 PM

Cynical Cat said:

Obetor said:

 

I agree on what you are saying but I would not use Path of the Renegade as a source. It’s a okay book but it has terribly fluff.

 

- Erik

 

 

 

What's terrible about the fluff? 

There is a lot of minor thinks like code of the incubus, they don’t get killed by their own if they kill an archon. The female archon (can’t remember her name) should be a Succubus, and the succubus in the group should be a Hekatrix, but the author thinks that noble houses only can be Kabals.

But the biggest fluff fail is that Dark Eldar only can be a finite time outside the webway before losing their soul to Slaanesh.
According to Path of the Renegade Duke Sliscus can exist.
 

I have read and played Dark Eldar for 3 years now, but I have never read about disjunction or whatever that cataclysm is called.
All in all I like the characters and the plot, but hate the ending and the fluff
But I might be wrong
Sorry about grammar I’m from Denmark 

- Erik 
 



#12 HappyDaze

HappyDaze

    Member

  • Members
  • 5,895 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:44 PM

Obetor said:

There is a lot of minor thinks like code of the incubus, they don’t get killed by their own if they kill an archon. The female archon (can’t remember her name) should be a Succubus, and the succubus in the group should be a Hekatrix, but the author thinks that noble houses only can be Kabals.

Most of the above fits fairly well with the old Codex, excepting only the part about the Incubus.

And the book had an ending? I thought it just fell apart at the end. The Disjunction describes what happened to the writer rather than to the characters…


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody.


#13 Cynical Cat

Cynical Cat

    Member

  • Members
  • 646 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:41 AM

1) The author doesn't state that only noble houses can be kabals.  The central conspiracy concerns noble houses that became kabals, in part because those houses all hate Vect.

2) Actually Archon is the closest to correct title.  A triumvirate of Succubi are the usual leaders of a Wych Cult.  Wych cults usually have a kabal as a patron.  In this case, its pretty clear that the kabal and the cult merged.

3) Life being drained at a faster rate when the Dark Eldar are off the Webway doesn't invalidate Sliscus's existence.  He is, after all, in the Webway at least part of the time in order to travel from system to system.  And it's not like he has any shortage of victims in order to make up for lost vitality as he is arguably the greatest living Dark Eldar Corsair.

4) I have yet to read anything that suggest there is anything wrong with believing that the incubus might be slain for breaking his word and killing his archon.  We know their order is harsh, murderous, and disciplined.  Of course, it's revealed in the book that Nyos's belief that the incubus would be killed for treason is wrong because the archon had become daemonically possessed.  I haven't seen how this violated the fluff in any way.

5) The Disjunction is new territory, but novels are allowed to create new material.  They would be rather dull if they didn't.  The Disjunction isn't really addressed, but Path of the Renegade is the first book in a trilogy.  It's a cliff hanger.  I imagine Path of the Incubus will address the Disjunction and its fallout.



#14 Blood Pact

Blood Pact

    Member

  • Members
  • 869 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 05:08 AM

HappyDaze said:

Obetor said:

There is a lot of minor thinks like code of the incubus, they don’t get killed by their own if they kill an archon. The female archon (can’t remember her name) should be a Succubus, and the succubus in the group should be a Hekatrix, but the author thinks that noble houses only can be Kabals.

 

Most of the above fits fairly well with the old Codex, excepting only the part about the Incubus.

And the book had an ending? I thought it just fell apart at the end. The Disjunction describes what happened to the writer rather than to the characters…

Yeah, the Incubus thing probably had less to do with killing his Archon, and more to do with breakinghis word (in such a very visible way, at least). Since the Incubi rely on their reputation as impartial, somewhat mercenary killers, to get by in the dark city.

And on Disjunctions, it stands to reason that since the Webway has suffered damage and cataclysm before, it can happen again. And Commorragh isn't one domain, but the patchwork of multiple strands of the webway, rudely stiched together to make one collossal city. Not such an unreasonable premise.

And as a side note, as old a part of the game as the Dark Eldar are, we don't really have enough information about them in general.



#15 HappyDaze

HappyDaze

    Member

  • Members
  • 5,895 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:27 AM

Blood Pact said:

And as a side note, as old a part of the game as the Dark Eldar are, we don't really have enough information about them in general.

Um, yeah…

I still find them 'newish' since they only came into WH40K after I stopped playing the wargame.

I'm feeling old now.


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody.


#16 Blood Pact

Blood Pact

    Member

  • Members
  • 869 posts

Posted 28 September 2012 - 05:37 PM

I know the feeling sometimes.

The start of 3rd edition was still quite a long time ago.

For what it's worth, I never really liked the old Dark Eldar, but the new models look wonderful.



#17 Obetor

Obetor

    Member

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:59 PM

Cynical Cat said:

1) The author doesn't state that only noble houses can be kabals.  The central conspiracy concerns noble houses that became kabals, in part because those houses all hate Vect.

2) Actually Archon is the closest to correct title.  A triumvirate of Succubi are the usual leaders of a Wych Cult.  Wych cults usually have a kabal as a patron.  In this case, its pretty clear that the kabal and the cult merged.

3) Life being drained at a faster rate when the Dark Eldar are off the Webway doesn't invalidate Sliscus's existence.  He is, after all, in the Webway at least part of the time in order to travel from system to system.  And it's not like he has any shortage of victims in order to make up for lost vitality as he is arguably the greatest living Dark Eldar Corsair.

4) I have yet to read anything that suggest there is anything wrong with believing that the incubus might be slain for breaking his word and killing his archon.  We know their order is harsh, murderous, and disciplined.  Of course, it's revealed in the book that Nyos's belief that the incubus would be killed for treason is wrong because the archon had become daemonically possessed.  I haven't seen how this violated the fluff in any way.

5) The Disjunction is new territory, but novels are allowed to create new material.  They would be rather dull if they didn't.  The Disjunction isn't really addressed, but Path of the Renegade is the first book in a trilogy.  It's a cliff hanger.  I imagine Path of the Incubus will address the Disjunction and its fallout.

1) Your right. It was poor wording on my part.
2) I still see her as a Succubus. Her noble house might have been a Kabal but I see it as a Wych Cult now.
3) As I read it the rate with which their soul is drained are much higher. The way it is described it sounds as if the can only be outside the webway days weeks max.
4) Incubus are more trust worthy then most Dark Eldar but they are still greedy mercenaries. Its bad for business if they kill Archons, but if there is a large enough price on an Archons head. I have no problem with Morr’s loyalty because he respects the Archon.

 

 



#18 Obetor

Obetor

    Member

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:16 PM

Blood Pact said:

HappyDaze said:

 

Obetor said:

There is a lot of minor thinks like code of the incubus, they don’t get killed by their own if they kill an archon. The female archon (can’t remember her name) should be a Succubus, and the succubus in the group should be a Hekatrix, but the author thinks that noble houses only can be Kabals.

 

Most of the above fits fairly well with the old Codex, excepting only the part about the Incubus.

And the book had an ending? I thought it just fell apart at the end. The Disjunction describes what happened to the writer rather than to the characters…

 

 

Yeah, the Incubus thing probably had less to do with killing his Archon, and more to do with breakinghis word (in such a very visible way, at least). Since the Incubi rely on their reputation as impartial, somewhat mercenary killers, to get by in the dark city.

And on Disjunctions, it stands to reason that since the Webway has suffered damage and cataclysm before, it can happen again. And Commorragh isn't one domain, but the patchwork of multiple strands of the webway, rudely stiched together to make one collossal city. Not such an unreasonable premise.

And as a side note, as old a part of the game as the Dark Eldar are, we don't really have enough information about them in general.

They braking of word makes more sense, but I still don’t see an Incubi being killed because of that.

 

The webway is old and damaged but a really can’t see how the Disjunctions can destraoy the dark city. The city I made of thousand of sub relms a galaxy apart, so I can’t see how a collapsing webway will destroy the entire city. If an exploding warp engine can’t destroy a sub relm.

We do need more Dark Eldar book

- Erik
 



#19 HappyDaze

HappyDaze

    Member

  • Members
  • 5,895 posts

Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:50 PM

IIRC, Path of the Renegade also has several instances where the Dark Eldar seem to be unable to see in the dark.


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody.





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS