Jump to content



Photo

circle fight question


  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 R2D2

R2D2

    Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:26 PM

So i played my first game last night (quick start rules) against my girlfriend.

I played empire and she played rebels.

Found ourselves in a position when it got to 1 on 1, where we were parallel to each other and facing opposite directions and it became a circle fight.

The thing is, I assumed that a tie (having a tighter turning circle and being quicker) would win a single flow circle fight.

BUT, I kept picking hard left turns (1 and 2) to try and outturn her, whilst she kept picking hard left 3 turns. As a result, we both moved 90 degrees every turn and stayed in the same relative positions. In the end I had to break the circle or it would have gone on like this forever.

It seems an odd mechanic which allows a faster, more agile ship to be stalemated like this in a circle fight.

Have others encountered this endless circle problem and how did they solve it?

 

p.s I won in the end, but only due to a few lucky shots at range 3 which took down her shields, then a turn where we were both facing at range 1 and I won purely because i got a lucky roll and got to attack before her…

 



#2 Daveydavedave

Daveydavedave

    Member

  • Members
  • 291 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:33 PM

R2D2 said:

So i played my first game last night (quick start rules) against my girlfriend.

I played empire and she played rebels.

Found ourselves in a position when it got to 1 on 1, where we were parallel to each other and facing opposite directions and it became a circle fight.

The thing is, I assumed that a tie (having a tighter turning circle and being quicker) would win a single flow circle fight.

BUT, I kept picking hard left turns (1 and 2) to try and outturn her, whilst she kept picking hard left 3 turns. As a result, we both moved 90 degrees every turn and stayed in the same relative positions. In the end I had to break the circle or it would have gone on like this forever.

It seems an odd mechanic which allows a faster, more agile ship to be stalemated like this in a circle fight.

Have others encountered this endless circle problem and how did they solve it?

 

p.s I won in the end, but only due to a few lucky shots at range 3 which took down her shields, then a turn where we were both facing at range 1 and I won purely because i got a lucky roll and got to attack before her…

 

Turn a different direction?  

The Tie does have hard 1 turns, which the X-Wing cannot perform.  But the X-Wing can do straight 1 moves which the Tie cannot.  So the x-wing can do the whole Top Gun stall out and watch the tailing enemy blow past you right into your sights thing.

 

 

In your example, your GF could have probably done a speed 1 bank turn in order to get you into her front arc and shoot.  It's always a guessing game.

 



#3 ScottieATF

ScottieATF

    Member

  • Members
  • 722 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:35 PM

Why didn't either of you perform a K-Turn at any time, which would have left your opponent under your guns and you out of theirs? There was no reason to ever enter into that stalemate….



#4 cleardave

cleardave

    Member

  • Members
  • 402 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:37 PM

 I'm not having the best time trying to picture what your situation is, but since you're using TIE's (a TIE Fighter I'm guessing, since you were doing hard 1 turns), have you tried doing barrel rolls?  That should move you out of the loop a little.  You could also try doing a Koiogran turn when you know she's going to loop around and just open fire on the rear of her ship.



#5 DagobahDave

DagobahDave

    Laser Brain

  • Members
  • 1,172 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:20 PM

Ah. Quick start rules.

Use the full rulebook. :)


Join the Unofficial X-Wing Galactic Campaign and propel your favorite faction toward victory every time you play!

 


#6 Daveydavedave

Daveydavedave

    Member

  • Members
  • 291 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:23 PM

I'm glad that 45 and 90 degree turns are the only choices for all ships.  If anyone could turn faster it would immediately break the game, and it would be much less elegant.

The fact that different ships have access to maneuvers at different speeds adds great depth to the strategy of movement.



#7 R2D2

R2D2

    Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:39 PM

your suggestions arent quite right…

 

Picture this: draw a circle on a piece of paper. At 90 degrees (3 o clock) draw an x-wing facing up. At 270 degrees (9 o clock) draw a tie fighter facing down.

If the tie tries to outturn the x-wing, it doesnt work (as both move 90 degrees, whatever size the circle is/speed the manouvre is)

If I koiogran turn, I end up either out of range to attack or in the x wings firing arc at longer range (bad for a tie fighter)

if i turn the other way, I end up with my back to an x-wing and in range.

I just think it makes more sense if a tighter turning ship could do a tighter turn and end up cutting the x wing off.

The problem is that the tie can do tight turns but only at lower speeds. really it should be able to do high speed tight turns, but retain the smaller turning circle (thereby doing more than 90 degrees). otherwise a tie can never get to behind an x wing from parallel and facing opposite directions, without a fair amount of luck, no?

I dont think this would break the game, it would enable ties to get x wings in thier sights better at close range, which is kind of what ties are good at, isnt it?

p.s barrel rolling makes no difference, the size of the circle you do is irrelevant if you always do 90 degrees at any speed.

 



#8 cleardave

cleardave

    Member

  • Members
  • 402 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:17 AM

 The barrel roll should absolutely make the difference, especially when you can do 90 degree turns at speed 1.  Your TIE can make a revolution of a much small circle, and should end up behind the X-Wing.

Also, consider that if you break off from the circle, your TIE could take an Evade action and, with Agility 3, have a decent chance of not taking damage.

Can you give us more detail on what pilots/upgrades you were using in that game?  Dark Curse, for instance, would have some pretty good odds of not getting ripped up by the X-Wing if he is using Evade, or Focus if you think you might get a shot off.



#9 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,388 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:43 AM

cleardave said:

 The barrel roll should absolutely make the difference, especially when you can do 90 degree turns at speed 1.  Your TIE can make a revolution of a much small circle, and should end up behind the X-Wing.

Also, consider that if you break off from the circle, your TIE could take an Evade action and, with Agility 3, have a decent chance of not taking damage.

Can you give us more detail on what pilots/upgrades you were using in that game?  Dark Curse, for instance, would have some pretty good odds of not getting ripped up by the X-Wing if he is using Evade, or Focus if you think you might get a shot off.

Barrel roll doesn't help at all actually.  Yes, the TIE can make a smaller circle, but it can't make a faster circle, meaning the ships will always be facing opposite directions across the circle from each other.  Think about it: it will take the TIE 4 turns to make a circle, the same number of turns it takes the X-wing.  The TIE will never "catch up" and end up behind the x-wing.  Barrel roll doesn't help because it can't change the direction the TIE is facing at all.



#10 R2D2

R2D2

    Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:29 AM

dbmeboy said:

cleardave said:

 

 The barrel roll should absolutely make the difference, especially when you can do 90 degree turns at speed 1.  Your TIE can make a revolution of a much small circle, and should end up behind the X-Wing.

Also, consider that if you break off from the circle, your TIE could take an Evade action and, with Agility 3, have a decent chance of not taking damage.

Can you give us more detail on what pilots/upgrades you were using in that game?  Dark Curse, for instance, would have some pretty good odds of not getting ripped up by the X-Wing if he is using Evade, or Focus if you think you might get a shot off.

 

 

Barrel roll doesn't help at all actually.  Yes, the TIE can make a smaller circle, but it can't make a faster circle, meaning the ships will always be facing opposite directions across the circle from each other.  Think about it: it will take the TIE 4 turns to make a circle, the same number of turns it takes the X-wing.  The TIE will never "catch up" and end up behind the x-wing.  Barrel roll doesn't help because it can't change the direction the TIE is facing at all.

dbmeboy: exactly! I tried this in the game!

Cleardave: It was the quickstart rules (trying to give my girlfriend an easy time as she doesnt like this kind of game and only offered to play because i was so excited about finally getting the pieces…shes the best!)

breaking off was a bad tactical choice, because she had plenty of time to target lock me during the circling, and then could focus to attack… that still puts me at a severe disadvantage…

It shouldnt be that breaking away is the worst tactical choice, because that only encourages the players to do the same moves…. like I said, I did eventually break away and only 2 successive incredibly lucky (from my point of view) rolls stopped me being easily dispatched…

It just doesnt seem right that a tie doing a smaller circle isnt going as fast as an x-wing doing a wider circle. surely the ties great use is that it can manouvre better whilst maintaining the same speed? otherwise the difference appears to be that ties can go slower than x-wings, which doesnt seem to fit with the general SW canon.

Oh and, before anyone gets annoyed about me mentioning canon. I am not a slave to canon and generally actively argue with those who are, but general mechanics of the ships is a bit different, and broad technical canon defines the uses and weaknesses of the ships in this game..



#11 R2D2

R2D2

    Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:31 AM

p.s what use is the 1 speed hard turn really if not for exactly this situation?



#12 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,388 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:37 AM

What happens if you reverse your circle direction?  After the first move, you'd be parallel with the X-Wing instead of anti-parallel, but with barrel rolls before and/or after the move might still be out of the firing arc.  Then, if the X-Wing didn't change its movement you'd be behind it in 2 more moves.  I'd have to go get my templates out to test that one…



#13 R2D2

R2D2

    Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:51 AM

dbmeboy said:

What happens if you reverse your circle direction?  After the first move, you'd be parallel with the X-Wing instead of anti-parallel, but with barrel rolls before and/or after the move might still be out of the firing arc.  Then, if the X-Wing didn't change its movement you'd be behind it in 2 more moves.  I'd have to go get my templates out to test that one…

You mean turn the opposite direction? so it becomes a 2 circle fight?

from the tiny diagram I just drew on a scrap of paper at work, That would put me and her staggered but parallel on the next turn, then if she does the same again, and so do i (ie turn the opposite direction) we are back in the circle, its just moved over. if she goes straight or something, then we end up with either her with a shot at my side, or vice versa (depending on her speed). I suppose this is a way out, but its a big risk. Safer to keep circling!

i would expect that your answer is the most logical way out of this though.

I think ultimately its less of an issue when theres more ships, but if there was a mission which involved surviving a certain amount of time, this is an almost foolproof way of doing so once youre down to 1 on 1.

its more the implication that ties are more manouvrable because they can go slower which annoys me. Ties should be able to do more than a 90 degree turn, even if its only a tiny bit. I hope interceptors can.



#14 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,388 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:58 AM

I don't think interceptors will have a sharper turn movement (the pictures of what comes with the package don't show any new movement templates), but the boost action might allow for it.  We'll have to wait and see what boost does…



#15 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,388 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:07 AM

After testing it out with actual ships and templates, it looks like the TIE switching to a 2 circle fight can allow it to get behind the x-wing without the x-wing ever having a shot, though it is heavily dependent on the original spacing (which the TIE can manipulate with barrel rolls).  The TIE was then able to transition back to 1 circle fighting behind the x-wing.  I know it's not the answer you wanted, but it does allow the TIE to force the X-wing into doing something different or getting shot to pieces.



#16 R2D2

R2D2

    Member

  • Members
  • 123 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:09 AM

Id love to see diagrams or pictures of how this works! or a step by step instruction. I will have to try it at home tonight!

thanks! though. the force truly is strong with you!



#17 Tawnos

Tawnos

    Member

  • Members
  • 267 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:11 AM

I'm a bit confused about your desired outcome for this situation.  It sounds like you're looking for a full-proof way to wind up behind the X-wing, as you've stated that a head-to-head path would be undesirable, and (obviously) ending up with the X-wing behind you would be less than optimal.

Unfortunately, there's no guaranteed way to make this happen.  It sounds like the entire scenario is predicated on the fact that you know the X-wing will continue making sharp 2 turns.  And you simply can't know that.

Hell, if I were one on one in an X-wing vs. a TIE, I wouldn't keep trying to loop around on it.  I'd pull out of the loop with a straight 4, try to get as much distance as I could, pull a Koiogran turn, and force a head-on-head fight, where the X-wing has a decided advantage.  If I were in the TIE, my thought process would be much the same.  Get out of there with a straight 5, outrun the X-wing, get turned around, and play chicken, hoping the X-wing misjudges which way I'll turn, allowing me to slip in behind it.

Unfortunately, in the stated situation, if you're the one in the TIE, you're at a disadvantage, plain and simple.



#18 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,388 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:17 AM

I'll do my best to explain.  To keep things clear, I'll use math-style location and direction indications (0° is at "3 o'clock", numbering is counter clockwise).

Start with the X-Wing at some location facing 90° and the TIE facing 270° and to the "left" (180° direction) of the X-Wing.  They've been circling counter clockwise to this point.

Move 1: The X-Wing continues to make speed 3, 90° turns to the left.  The imperial player changes their mind and instead has the TIE make a speed 1, 90° turn to the right.  Both ships are now facing 180°.  The TIE is "below" (the 270° direction) the X-Wing.  From my testing, the TIE usually ends up outside of the X-Wing's firing arc still.

Move 2: The ships make the same move again.  The X-Wing is now facing 270° and the TIE is facing 90°.  This is the dangerous point for the TIE.  If the spacing was wrong, it could be going head-to-head.  If the spacing was right, the TIE ends up behind the X-Wing (the ships are now back to back).

Move 3: The ships make the same move again.  The X-Wing is now facing 0°.  The TIE is also facing 0° and is behind the X-Wing.  A barrel roll might be needed to line up the shot still.

Move 4: The TIE can now move into single circle fighting if the rebel player doesn't change strategy.  Barrel rolls will probably still be needed occasionally to stay lined up on target (since you don't make a perfect circle while moving due to adding the ship's base to moves).



#19 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,388 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:25 AM

One note though: the game will always be limited in your ability to perform single circle flights due to the simultaneous nature of movement choices.  Unlike an actual dogfight, the trailing pilot isn't able to react to the lead pilots turn to stay on their tail, which allows the lead pilot to escape easily.  For instance, if you did maneuver the TIE into a close trail position on an X-Wing while circling, the X-Wing could take a speed 4, K-Turn while the TIE continued the circle to have a good broad-side shot at the TIE.



#20 Tawnos

Tawnos

    Member

  • Members
  • 267 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:33 AM

I understand the scenario you just outlined.  But I don't understand the point of analyzing a scenario where the actions of the opponent (in this case, the X-wing) are pre-scripted.

There's an awful lot of "ifs" and assumptions made in that scenario about what the X-wing player will do.  At the very least, making the third hard left 3 is, arguably, a boneheaded move, as it puts your back to the TIE who can easy turn into pursuit.

I guess if the entire scenario is predicated on the fact that the X-wing player will continue making hard left 3 turns, then….okay, sure.  But that's not a very interesting scenario to consider.

X-wing vs. TIE, assuming both are unharmed, is a clear disadvantage for the TIE.  At that point, you're really banking on the dice gods smiling upon you.  Even if you could slip in behind the X-wing, chances are very good that you're going to wind up head-to-head sooner rather than later, unless the X-wing player has an irrational fear of Koiogran turns.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS