Jump to content



Photo

So how do corporations win?


  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

#1 FFTARoxorz05

FFTARoxorz05

    Member

  • Members
  • 59 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:59 PM

From what I can tell, there's a strong change the runner can steal at least one agenda first turn since, even if there's an ice in front of HQ, they probably can't pay for it so you just make 4 runs at HQ.   Then the runner can make WAY more money and easily bypass anything you can play early on (and/or discard the asset that makes credits to where you can't make money other than 1 per click).  How is everyone playing corporations to get around that?



#2 profligate

profligate

    Member

  • Members
  • 90 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 02:37 PM

FFTARoxorz05 said:

From what I can tell, there's a strong change the runner can steal at least one agenda first turn since, even if there's an ice in front of HQ, they probably can't pay for it so you just make 4 runs at HQ.   Then the runner can make WAY more money and easily bypass anything you can play early on (and/or discard the asset that makes credits to where you can't make money other than 1 per click).  How is everyone playing corporations to get around that?

I'm not sure how to respond to this.  It sounds like you haven't even played the game once.

First of all, you're flat-out wrong about runner credit-generation.
Second of all, the Corp can pretty easily drop meaningful ICE on turn one and rez it.
Third of all, there's no guarantee that HQ even contains an Agenda, or that the Runner can successfully "fingers" it out of the Corp's hand.
Fourth of all, even if the Runner gets to look at 4 cards from HQ, each peek is an individual, random card -- therefore it's possible, even probable -- that when the corp is in a bad spot, for the Runner to get only one agenda out of 4 runs.



#3 jabrams007

jabrams007

    Member

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:11 PM

profligate said:

 

FFTARoxorz05 said:

 

From what I can tell, there's a strong change the runner can steal at least one agenda first turn since, even if there's an ice in front of HQ, they probably can't pay for it so you just make 4 runs at HQ.   Then the runner can make WAY more money and easily bypass anything you can play early on (and/or discard the asset that makes credits to where you can't make money other than 1 per click).  How is everyone playing corporations to get around that?

 

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this.  It sounds like you haven't even played the game once.

First of all, you're flat-out wrong about runner credit-generation.
Second of all, the Corp can pretty easily drop meaningful ICE on turn one and rez it.
Third of all, there's no guarantee that HQ even contains an Agenda, or that the Runner can successfully "fingers" it out of the Corp's hand.
Fourth of all, even if the Runner gets to look at 4 cards from HQ, each peek is an individual, random card -- therefore it's possible, even probable -- that when the corp is in a bad spot, for the Runner to get only one agenda out of 4 runs.

 

 

In addition, unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, if a Runner makes a run on the Corporation's R&D, and doesn't find an Agenda, and doesn't trash the card, it goes back to the top of the R&D pile.  Each run is a separate and distinct action, so each run would encounter the top card of the R&D, unless the Runner plays a card to change this (which are out there).  Any subsequent runs would just encounter the same card over and over again. 



#4 IamSalvation

IamSalvation

    Member

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:23 PM

 There are 3 Options:

  1. You never played the game
  2. You got some rules very wrong
  3. You played only Jinteki vs. Shaper

Let me explain the last one… in my first ever game i played as Jinteki vs. a fist game ever player with shaper. I felt like i had no power at all, he was running where ever he wanted, trashing all stuff, my ice was nothing to stop him.,

I think its a big problem for the corp player that Jinteki has nno ice with real hard stopping power, even your 8 Cost Ice is cheap to break with the right programm and you don´t have anything that hits hard. 

What you have is what every corp has to trump the runner: You have knowledge about everything exept runners hand + Deck. 

The Runner does not know what ice you play until he runs into it. He does not know if you played a agenda in the server or a junebug. You need to play with this. I think its a lot harder to get how to play with a corp then to play the runner if you are both learning the game. 

Perhapse try out a different Corpfaction that has a bit more stopping ice, like Weyland or Haas-Bioroid. Just be sure to have a look at the cards before you play to know what you can get.

Hint:

With Weyland your best Option to win is: score posted bounty at the beginning of your turn, play 2x scorched earth, if you don´t have a 2nd privat security force can also do it or search one with aggressive negotiations…

With Haas: You have strong, cheap ice, the drawback is that a runner can break it by spending clicks even if he has not the right breaker for it. Play 2 of that ice together so he can´t break it all with clicks. Use Enigma to make him lose clicks befor he encounters your bioroid ice. Don´t allways rezz on first encounter, suprise him with nasty things like rototurret or Ichy when he can´t break it and trash his breaker programms to throw him back some turns.

 

 

 



#5 IamSalvation

IamSalvation

    Member

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:24 PM

jabrams007 said:

profligate said:

 

 

 

 

In addition, unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, if a Runner makes a run on the Corporation's HQ, and doesn't find an Agenda, and doesn't trash the card, it goes back to the top of the HQ.  Each run is a separate and distinct action, so each run would encounter the top card of the HQ, unless the Runner plays a card to change this (which are out there).  Any subsequent runs would just encounter the same card over and over again. 

 

HQ is Hand, R&D is the Deck



#6 jabrams007

jabrams007

    Member

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:33 PM

IamSalvation said:

jabrams007 said:

 

profligate said:

 

 

 

 

In addition, unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, if a Runner makes a run on the Corporation's HQ, and doesn't find an Agenda, and doesn't trash the card, it goes back to the top of the HQ.  Each run is a separate and distinct action, so each run would encounter the top card of the HQ, unless the Runner plays a card to change this (which are out there).  Any subsequent runs would just encounter the same card over and over again. 

 

 

 

HQ is Hand, R&D is the Deck

Oops, my mistake.  Don't know why I kept writing HQ.  I went back and edited my previous post.  Thanks for pointing out my mistake.



#7 radiskull

radiskull

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,360 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:50 PM

 If you're playing Criminal, Gabriel only gets 2 credits the FIRST time he runs on HQ in a turn, not every time.



#8 cleardave

cleardave

    Member

  • Members
  • 406 posts

Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:12 PM

I'm no master Netrunner tactician, but from playing with just one Core Set, I can see so many ways for spamming HQ on the first turn to backfire on the runner.

Assuming I, as the Corp, installed no Ice on HQ on my turn, this was likely because I didn't have an agenda in HQ to begin with, or because I did, and I stuck it in a remote with some Ice to cover it.  Either way, when you run HQ, you're drawing a random card, looking at it, then it gets mixed up in my hand again.  Then you spend your second click to run HQ again, so you pick another random card, and have a 1/5 chance of seeing the same card, assuming I have a full hand on your turn.

Also, what if you had a Snare! in your HQ, and the credits to set it off? That's a pretty significant bit of damage for the Runner to take.

Also, if you ran HQ for your whole turn, you didn't install anything in your rig, draw cards or gain credits.

There's just so much wrong with the original post I can't imagine where to begin.  Perhaps the OP needs to give us more details on how these games are playing out.  With any luck, there's just some oversight somewhere getting in the way of this person's enjoyment of the game, and we can rally together to get this Netrunner back on track.



#9 RipperOfJacks

RipperOfJacks

    Member

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:34 AM

 So far I've found the game favours the runner, but for very different reasons from what you said.  The runner is slightly better at generating credits because of having more options (pawn shop, armitage, modus operandi, etc.) while the corporations tend to have a smaller set of really good cards.  The runner can also mulligan more aggressively, it's hard to mulligan a 0 agenda hand with no credit generation as the corporation for instance.  The runner needs to be because ice tends to be expensive to beat compared to rez cost.  (An ice that costs 3 to break with a program that costs 4 to play when the ice itself costs 4 to play is going to be fairly expensive over the course of the game if you use that program 4 times on 2 similar pieces of ice in different locations the runner is paying a total of 16 and the corporation is paying 8.. the runner is taking 5 actions (1 install 4 runs) the corporation is taking 2 (laying 2 pieces of ice).  Admittedly the runs have other good consequences if successful, but while the runner is inherently better at generating credits, the math tends to favour the corporation.  Toll booth for instance is quite effective in terms of the numbers game, costing 3 to encounter and 4 to break with gordion blade (considered the best code gate breaker).

I've generally disliked criminal because HQ is often the worst place to run… unless the board situation or a read tells you that the person might have 2 agendas but only one reasonably safe remote server. Even then, there is the issue of whether you're getting bluffed, as Jinteki a lot of the time it makes sense to represent snare or junebug rather than leave an agenda in a small hand.  When more and better ice are available through expansions snare becomes easier to splash and a likely card in all sorts of decks.  Also, this bluffing play is even more common against criminal who are incentivized to run at your hand.

For me one of the early game nightmare cards (on the corporate side) has been forced activation orders, which often puts you in a credit poor situation or forces you to lose an early game ice.  Many of the good early game ice cards are only really good as surprises.  It's also really frustrating if they catch you running an ice you can't pay for out there to discourage running, since then they get a 1 for 1 that takes out a valuable card.

I find in many matchups I have to guard R&D on turn 1 because of the threat of medium. I have not yet won a game where the opponent played medium and ran on R&D 3 times successfully as their turn one.  Unless you are able to destroy medium it often creates inevitability: if they are able to run on R&D once every three turns they see enough cards to get your agendas before you do. 

 



#10 cleardave

cleardave

    Member

  • Members
  • 406 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:02 AM

 Every time I won a game, it was because I was able to guide the Runner into eating Project Junebug, and hitting them with Neural EMP on my turn to finish off any leftover health they may have.  At a glance (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), could you not also cheaply soften the Runner up with Data Mine?  There's no cost to rez it, and it's a Trap type, so it limits what Icebreakers can be used to neutralize it.

Net Shield and Crypsis come to mind.

I'm not saying Data Mine is the best card ever, I'm just tossing out another option for the Corp to put up some defense when Credits are in short supply.



#11 RipperOfJacks

RipperOfJacks

    Member

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:07 AM

 Data Mine is useful strategically in spots, but as a corporation, I seldom want to 1 for 1 the runner while giving the runner tempo.  Most of the runner decks I've played run enough card draw that they often come at Jinteki with 7 cards in hand, I prefer ice that has a lasting impact and recurring costs to the runner.



#12 FFTARoxorz05

FFTARoxorz05

    Member

  • Members
  • 59 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:12 PM

So I've played a few more games, and while running HQ turn one has worked every game I've played in, it's just a fact that the runner will get ahead in points and credits early on.  Maybe there's a crazy corporation build to combat that, but for me it's knowing that late game you can score two agendas VERY quickly that keeps me from whining about the runner's insane early game capabilities more.

Also I wasn't running HQ for the 2 credits, I was running it because either you keep the agena in hand so I have a chance at hitting it or you play it with an ice that you can't activate since 1 credit doesn't pay for anything too spectacular from what I remember.



#13 cleardave

cleardave

    Member

  • Members
  • 406 posts

Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:59 PM

FFTARoxorz05 said:

So I've played a few more games, and while running HQ turn one has worked every game I've played in, it's just a fact that the runner will get ahead in points and credits early on.  Maybe there's a crazy corporation build to combat that, but for me it's knowing that late game you can score two agendas VERY quickly that keeps me from whining about the runner's insane early game capabilities more.

Also I wasn't running HQ for the 2 credits, I was running it because either you keep the agena in hand so I have a chance at hitting it or you play it with an ice that you can't activate since 1 credit doesn't pay for anything too spectacular from what I remember.

I think you're going to have to give us a more detailed account of these games you're playing.  Maybe take notes on each what each player does with their clicks, and post the deck lists as well.  Just bullet point the player actions without any hyperbole, and we can help you see where this is going wrong.

How is your Corp player only having 1 credit to activate their ICE?  The Corp starts with 5 credits in the bank and takes the first turn.  Assuming you had an agenda in your starting hand, and some affordable ICE to rez if the Runner goes for it on their turn, you should be easily able to deploy it under protection.

I haven't ventured too far into deckbuilding.  We've just been playing with the Core Set started decks, swapping out the neutrals to change Identities, but I've never had this happen.  Maybe it's in your deck build?

For instance, using the suggested starting Identity of Jinteki with the neutral cards shuffled in, you have so many choices to protect an installed agenda;

Neural Kitana; pay 4 to rez, causes 3 net damage

Enigma; 3 to rez, burns a Runner action and ends the run

Wall of Static; 3 to rez, ends the run

Chum; 1 to rez, put it in front of something cheaper, so you pay 1 to install it, leaving you with 4 credits for the Runner's turn

Data Mine; 0 to rez, 1 net damage

You could also keep your credits if you get Snare! in your hand and decide to either keep it there or put it in a server.  It installs for free.  Project Junebug can be an early bait if you can advance it twice, and "forget" to save credits to rez your ice that's in front of it.

I think you need to give us some concise details of these games.



#14 sydwys8

sydwys8

    Member

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:28 AM

Have you ever played online? If you get outside your play group and play a game, you might figure out your problem:

www.boardgamegeek.com/guild/1387|BGG

octgn.gamersjudgement.com/viewtopic.php



#15 Paul Grogan

Paul Grogan

    Member

  • Members
  • 451 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:11 AM

FFTARoxorz05 said:

So I've played a few more games, and while running HQ turn one has worked every game I've played in, it's just a fact that the runner will get ahead in points and credits early on.  Maybe there's a crazy corporation build to combat that, but for me it's knowing that late game you can score two agendas VERY quickly that keeps me from whining about the runner's insane early game capabilities more.

Also I wasn't running HQ for the 2 credits, I was running it because either you keep the agena in hand so I have a chance at hitting it or you play it with an ice that you can't activate since 1 credit doesn't pay for anything too spectacular from what I remember.

 

Like others have said, it sounds like you are playing a different game, as I cannot really understand what it is you are saying.

A standard opening move is to protect HQ with a piece of ICE, maybe also protect R&D, and then maybe take a credit.  This means the corp with have 5-7 credits when the runner runs,  most likely that he can rez the ice in front of HQ to stop the runner getting in.   So, I'm really not sure how you are playing games where running HQ turn one wins every time.

"A crazy corporation build".  You mean with a piece of Ice that costs 6 or less to end the run?  Plenty of them :)

Are you sure that both sides are starting the game with 5 credits?



#16 byronczimmer

byronczimmer

    Member

  • Members
  • 93 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:20 AM

FFTARoxorz05 said:

So I've played a few more games, and while running HQ turn one has worked every game I've played in, it's just a fact that the runner will get ahead in points and credits early on.  Maybe there's a crazy corporation build to combat that, but for me it's knowing that late game you can score two agendas VERY quickly that keeps me from whining about the runner's insane early game capabilities more.

Also I wasn't running HQ for the 2 credits, I was running it because either you keep the agenda in hand so I have a chance at hitting it or you play it with an ice that you can't activate since 1 credit doesn't pay for anything too spectacular from what I remember.

 

Query:  Are both sides starting with 5 credits?

The above sounds like the Corp's first turn is "Install Agenda, Install ICE, take a credit" which should leave them with 6 credits, not 1.



#17 Messenger

Messenger

    Member

  • Members
  • 224 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:34 PM

byronczimmer said:

FFTARoxorz05 said:

 

So I've played a few more games, and while running HQ turn one has worked every game I've played in, it's just a fact that the runner will get ahead in points and credits early on.  Maybe there's a crazy corporation build to combat that, but for me it's knowing that late game you can score two agendas VERY quickly that keeps me from whining about the runner's insane early game capabilities more.

Also I wasn't running HQ for the 2 credits, I was running it because either you keep the agenda in hand so I have a chance at hitting it or you play it with an ice that you can't activate since 1 credit doesn't pay for anything too spectacular from what I remember.

 

 

 

Query:  Are both sides starting with 5 credits?

The above sounds like the Corp's first turn is "Install Agenda, Install ICE, take a credit" which should leave them with 6 credits, not 1.

This.

The Corp may be on the defensive all the time, but that side also sets the pace of the game because the Runner is dependent on trying to steal something from him that may not even be there.
Netrunner is like a shell game with con man playing the Corp: the ball under the cup the Runner is trying to find may not even be there, hence the rules that the Corp HAS to include a minimum of agenda in his decks as well as can only win by actually having balls under his cups.
For more insight on the shell game metaphor: follow this link (safe- leads to a webcomic episode which illustrates my point).


#18 skwizzle

skwizzle

    Member

  • Members
  • 73 posts

Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:37 PM

One thing that's important to remember is that you get one mulligan. If you find yourself with a handful of agendas, and no ice, a mulligan is a good idea.

First round for corp: use your ice to protect R&D and HQ. (HQ especially if there's agendas in it!) Then use your last click to get a credit or a card.

It's good to put down ice, even if you can't pay for it. The runner doesn't know whether you can pay for it or not. They might run on the server, anyway, but they'll definitely run if it's unprotected.

As other posters have pointed out, corp has 5 credits at the beginning of the first turn, and by the end of that turn should have 5 or more credits (since you should be saving up to rez that ice you just installed).



#19 ArachneJericho

ArachneJericho

    Member

  • Members
  • 98 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:59 AM

Query for the OP: are you paying credits to install ICE in the first place? If you are, that's wrong. You have the first piece of ICE in front of each server free (plus spending one click, of course). You install cards within servers for free (plus spending one click).

(Note: it's cute to ice HQ and go "click-click" for 7 credits, enough to rez almost anything except the most high quality of ICE, and make the runner sweat a bit.)

Another possibility of things going wrong: are you playing that the corp has to spend a click to draw their first card? That's wrong, for the corp draws their first card free of clicks. 

My apologies if you're doing both of these things right, I'm just speculating.

 



#20 Khudzlin

Khudzlin

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,420 posts

Posted 27 September 2012 - 06:56 PM

The first ICE installed on each server is free. You only pay when you want to install additional ICE on the same server (1 credit for each ICE already on the server, though you can trash any number of those first).






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS