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protons - your thoughts?


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#1 bullyboy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:37 AM

I'm still trying to figure out why these cost so much. I just don't see them as being that great vs Imperial fighters (maybe they are in the game for something we will see later down the line?). here are my thoughts…

 

4pts, that's 1/3 cost of basic TIE fighter.

They require a Target Lock (using up an action)

They can only be used at Range 2-3 (not a negative, just a statement)

Vs a TIE fighter it's 4 attack dice vs 3 agility

If the TIE has agility token, even tougher to get through

So even if you get a decent number of hits, there is a good chance that they will be mostly avoided. That's a lot of points for some possible damage (but mostly none).

I can see Wedge being slightly better (4 vs 2 dice) but still a lot of investment at 4 points. Imperial concussion missiles vs the Y wing is a different story altogether. So is the proton a weapon that is still awaiting a perfect prey in the Imperial fleet? Or am I missing something entirely?



#2 bullyboy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:40 AM

ignore, I have now found the edit button :)



#3 PanzerKraken

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:58 AM

Yea they really are not worth it unless you got extra points left over when building your squadron.  I've ended up taking them just for that purpose.  The extra chance to crit is a nice bonus, but I would never auto include them on any fighter and treat them as extra filler material.

Proton Torpedoes are really meant for use against larger targets and not ideal against fighters, so against slower targets they make for a nice heavy hitter, but currently when against just fast ties… not worth it.



#4 DavicusPrime

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:11 AM

I really haven't given them a try.  My son has been playing rebels, so I haven't had a ship that could carry them, but I've grown to love Concussion Missiles which are similar.  I see these as a long range sniper weapon.  It avoids the Bonus Defense Die at Range Band 3.  It helps ensure that you'll get at least one critical.  And it can be combined with a Focus if you've got a couple turns to set up the attack.

Like I use Missiles on TIE-Adv, I would put these on a low skill pilot so that he's shooting later in the turn.  You use higher skill pilots to shoot up the target and get him to burn up it's Evade/focus token.  Then let the Torp shooter take the finishing blow.  I would probably put them on a lower skill Y-Wing with an Ion Cannon so if the others actually kill the target early, you can just zap the closest TIE with your I-Cannon.

X's could use them in the same way to hammer on Ships at Range 3, but like my son, I'd probably spend the points on a useful droid and let the Laser cannons do the talking.

-DavicusPrime



#5 bullyboy

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:18 AM

this is why I think the concussion missile works. You have the extra ships to beat down the rebel shields first, then hit with the concussion. The rebels don't have a lot of agility dice and cannot use an evade. However, with Rebels, you don't usually have a lot of ships to knock down a TIE's evade and even then the agility dice will offset most of the torpedo attacks. And if you are using 2-3 rebel ships to knock off one TIE with protons, what are all the other TIEs doing? probably swooping in close for the kill! :)



#6 DavicusPrime

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:30 AM

You have a point.  Torps have always been meant to be fairly slow but powerful missile weapons, hitting a dodgy little TIE should be difficult.  I still like the idea of putting them on a Y-wing though.  X-Wings seem to be much better suited to dog fighting all the little gits.  the Y-Wing is a distraction unit rather than a TIE hunter.  The Ion cannon tends to discourage TIEs sticking close in and they're fairly slow, so I figure they'll have more opportunity to use them and it sure beats their Fire Power of 2.  especially at Range 3.

I'll post again after I get some practical experience with them to see what they can do.

-DavicusPrime



#7 Daveydavedave

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:46 AM

 Game mechanically they are FANTASTIC.  

Any dice you get over the number of dice your opponent defends with are HUGE mathematically.  

Torps nearly guarantees at least one damage, and they have a better than not chance (with a focus) of one shotting a tie fighter at full life.

If you can pay 4 points to eliminate 12+ in one turn before the tie even gets to shoot, you're gonna take it.

 

 

Tips:

Use at max range (ties still only get 3 defense dice because range modifiers don't apply to secondary weapons)

Use with a focus (get the most bang for your buck, but yes it does take 2 turns to perform the actions to set it up)

Use on a ship with preferably no shields

Use with pilots that get extra offensive bonuses (like Wedge)

Empire generally wants to get in close and swarm one x-wing at a time to focus him down.  Rebels can split up their x-wings to opposite sides of the map to create a situation where torpedoes work best and cant be ignored.



#8 cleardave

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:20 AM

 Here's my take on Proton Torpedo utility;

Always remember, using the Torpedo does NOT count as your action for the turn, so this lets you make use of a few scenarios to fire it off;

1)Move, Target Lock, Fire, all in one turn

2)Move, Focus, Fire (target lock acquired on a previous turn)

3)Move, Marksmanship, Fire (create potentially 2 critical hits if you get enough "focus" results on your 4 attack die)

4)Koiogran Turn, No Action (from the stress token you just got), Fire

…or basically make use of them on any turn you have a stress token, to get a decent volley of damage when you cannot focus or use another ability that requires an Action.

This can severely cripple TIE Fighters, and if used on a ship with your second-highest pilot skill, can put a hurting on a TIE Advanced that has already had its shields softened up or removed entirely by a previous attack that turn.

The Torpedos are great against Dark Curse, because the penalty that ship provides to your ability to attack it with the help of Focus tokens and rerolls is entirely bypassed by the Torpedos.  I believe there is also a TIE Fighter pilot in the TIE Fighter expansion that can cancel the effects of a damage card that is dealt face up with the Pilot Resource.  If someone has the card, or knows what I'm talking about, please expand upon it.  Either way, that's the only TIE's hull that won't take a serious pounding from the Torpedos, and even then, it's less than half the time.

At this stage of the game, the Proton Torpedo is not a useless upgrade at all.  I think the division of opinions comes from the fact that the apparently small number of ship types (2 per side) actually provides a lot of customizing options, so our individual tastes and play styles are really taking over here.  Time will ultimately tell how useful the Torpedo will continue to be, with future expansion ships and pilots on the horizon, but for now, I would stand in the camp that it is certainly worth the points if applied correctly.



#9 bullyboy

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:19 AM

I'm just not seeing it.

 

ran through a quick scenario.

 

Dutch Vander and Garven Dreis equipped with protons has a TIE at range 3. Ducth target locked and gave a free TL to Garven. Garven used his focus action. Garven fires first, use focus to change an eye to a hit and another eye to a crit. Got 2 crits, 1 hit. Garven then gives focus to vander. TIe rolls 3 dice and comes up with 2 evades and uses his evade action token to negate last crit. No damage. Vander then rolls and gets 1 hit, 3 blanks. TIe rolls 1 evade. granted, 3 blanks sucks but will happen.

2 protons used, 8 points, no damage to TIE fighter. Complete waste of points. The inability to reroll misses with torpedoes (because TL used to fire them) really makes it a crap shoot (and this was with the beneficial garven/vander combo giving out free TLs and focus tokens!)

 

To get these proton torpedoes on the ships (have 3 total) made me drop from 4 ships to 3. I just don't see the trade off.



#10 Daveydavedave

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:25 AM

Ya, having 3 ships as a rebel can be rough if the Empire player takes 8 tie fighters.  I prefer to take 4 ships, but by doing so you severely limit your ability to afford named pilots and gear like torpedoes.

Torps are great, they really do work.  However, the points are often hard to squeeze in.



#11 cleardave

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 09:36 AM

bullyboy said:

I'm just not seeing it.

 

ran through a quick scenario.

 

Dutch Vander and Garven Dreis equipped with protons has a TIE at range 3. Ducth target locked and gave a free TL to Garven. Garven used his focus action. Garven fires first, use focus to change an eye to a hit and another eye to a crit. Got 2 crits, 1 hit. Garven then gives focus to vander. TIe rolls 3 dice and comes up with 2 evades and uses his evade action token to negate last crit. No damage. Vander then rolls and gets 1 hit, 3 blanks. TIe rolls 1 evade. granted, 3 blanks sucks but will happen.

2 protons used, 8 points, no damage to TIE fighter. Complete waste of points. The inability to reroll misses with torpedoes (because TL used to fire them) really makes it a crap shoot (and this was with the beneficial garven/vander combo giving out free TLs and focus tokens!)

 

To get these proton torpedoes on the ships (have 3 total) made me drop from 4 ships to 3. I just don't see the trade off.

bullyboy said:

I'm just not seeing it.

 

If you're getting on fine without it, then keep going that way.  Like I said above, it's an option, and I don't think it's a must have, personally, but it can be useful.  Wedge with Marksmanship and Torpedos can bank on getting a couple of hits off of it.  Coupled with his ability to reduce his target's Agility by 1, you'll probably be putting a damage card on a TIE Fighter with that.  If the TIE Fighter did an Evade, they can certainly offset a hit, but even a Focus isn't a guarantee of anything.

Also, firing at Range 3 means you're also at Range 3 for Primary Weapons, so you'll get the extra green die in case of return fire from the target if you didn't kill it.

I'd say the real strength of the Torpedo is trying to drop a Critical Hit card on your opponent's ship.  Vader with one damage token isn't really any different, but with a Critical Hit card, his utility could drop significantly.  Whatever the result that comes up, if its a persistent effect, it's likely going to hamper your opponent's plans.  If you're lucky, you could even score a Direct Hit!



#12 Buckaroo

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:25 AM

cleardave said:

bullyboy said:

Also, firing at Range 3 means you're also at Range 3 for Primary Weapons, so you'll get the extra green die in case of return fire from the target if you didn't kill it.

I'd say the real strength of the Torpedo is trying to drop a Critical Hit card on your opponent's ship.  Vader with one damage token isn't really any different, but with a Critical Hit card, his utility could drop significantly.  Whatever the result that comes up, if its a persistent effect, it's likely going to hamper your opponent's plans.  If you're lucky, you could even score a Direct Hit!

 

I've played 11 games so far and have tried proton torps in 9 of them.  

I was only really successful with them in 1 game and in that case it took 12 points of torpedoes to take out a 18 point TIE Fighter.

It's tough to get the range three target lock and either get through their Evade token or have them break Target Lock with a barrel roll.

 

I'm going to be skipping torpedoes my next few games and see if it helps!



#13 qwertyuiop

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:52 AM

bullyboy said:

Dutch Vander and Garven Dreis equipped with protons has a TIE at range 3. Ducth target locked and gave a free TL to Garven. Garven used his focus action. Garven fires first, use focus to change an eye to a hit and another eye to a crit. Got 2 crits, 1 hit. Garven then gives focus to vander. TIe rolls 3 dice and comes up with 2 evades and uses his evade action token to negate last crit. No damage. Vander then rolls and gets 1 hit, 3 blanks. TIe rolls 1 evade. granted, 3 blanks sucks but will happen.

2 protons used, 8 points, no damage to TIE fighter. Complete waste of points. The inability to reroll misses with torpedoes (because TL used to fire them) really makes it a crap shoot (and this was with the beneficial garven/vander combo giving out free TLs and focus tokens!)

You might want to use Horton Salm instead and give him both torpedos. R5Kwhatever if you can afford it if you really want free locks. The free target locks from Dutch are good, but PROBABLY not as important as the free focus action from Garven. I like the build, though. :)  The numbers are in your favor either way, but you probably end up with unusable target locks with Dutch. It looks like you had some unlucky results.

 



#14 Hellfury

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:09 PM

bullyboy said:

protons - your thoughts?

I am attracted to them, as an electron



#15 AngryMojo

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:17 PM

Hellfury said:

 

I am attracted to them, as an electron

Are you positive about that?



#16 Tawnos

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:20 PM

I've been having similar experiences with the Proton Torpedos being less than effective, though I suspect that I've just had a string of bad luck.  I'm not ready to box them up quite yet, though.  Looking at them compared to a primary attack, I think they're still worth the potential payoff.  As with any situation, more dice = more entropy.  You might have a Torp that rolls complete crap, and one that rolls all crits.  I've seen both.

To offset the potential for crappulence, I would recommend against firing Torps in the round that you acquired the Target Lock, and instead wait until you can acquire a Focus to go with them.  This is why the Garven / Dutch combo works so well.



#17 Daveydavedave

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:00 PM

This conversation about protons has really turned costic!

 

Yay for science jokes! Yuck yuck yuck.



#18 AngryMojo

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:10 PM

Daveydavedave said:

This conversation about protons has really turned costic!

Don't you hate it when a debate goes nuclear?



#19 Daveydavedave

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:25 PM

AngryMojo said:

Daveydavedave said:

 

This conversation about protons has really turned costic!

 

 

Don't you hate it when a debate goes nuclear?

Youre right, let's try to keep it positive



#20 Daveydavedave

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:27 PM

Double post ftl






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