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On the "what? No Jedi??! gripe


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#1 IG-58

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:35 PM

This MAY have been discussed, and I missed it due to vast numbers of posts. It seems a Big Issue though, so my thoughts:

FIRST, I'd love to play a jedi. Hell, I'd BE a jedi in a different universe. But, I fully understand FFG's logic in not allowing you to be a jedi in Edge of Empire. In fact, I applaud them their vision & courage.

Edge of the Empire is like… a prequel. It sets the stage for the Big Damn Heroes (woops, wrong forum) that we've come to know and love. It's meant to give us a better feeling for the down-home grittiness of folks' lives in the Star Wars universe if you weren't Luke Skywalker. It's where Luke, Chewie and Han were at the very beginning of A New Hope (Luke was, of course, a Colonist). It's folks just trying to get by. There's no flippin' HEROES. There are Survivors. And there sure ain't no jedi trotting around.

Although it was announced at the beginning, I don't know if everyone is aware that there are two followup rules/sourcebooks planned. Book #2 is Age of Rebellion, which takes characters out of their Survivalist mode and makes their lives start to really mean something in the big scheme of things. Book #3 is Force and Destiny, where PCs become major galactic players and in which the blurb actually states that characters may be "the last surviving Force users in the galaxy."

These three volumes actually mirror the progress of the films; Luke starts as some hopeless scrub with scrub buddies hangin' out at Tosche Station, gets caught up in exciting local events, moves on to make a big name for himself and eventually becomes one of the biggest players in the galaxy.

So, don't sweat it because you can't fry & dice people as a Jedi (or Sith) from Square One. Take a step back. Play as a scrub, someone just trying to make his way in the world. FEEL the world around you! Get to know it. It will make the stuff that comes later all the more fun.

Addendum: If I had a complaint with the initial release, it would be "Gand?! Why not Duros instead?" and "no Astromech droid? I can play IG-88, but not R2-D2?"



#2 LethalDose

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 05:46 PM

IG-58 said:

So, don't sweat it because you can't fry & dice people as a Jedi (or Sith) from Square One. Take a step back. Play as a scrub, someone just trying to make his way in the world. FEEL the world around you! Get to know it. It will make the stuff that comes later all the more fun.

+1, though I wish there wasn't another thread for this.  At least it started out right.

 

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#3 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:10 PM

 I would argue that there is no point in starting at the bottom in the hope of moving up, because the chances are that what will happen is that the game will stop before you get very far. Then the next group starts at the bottom, and then falls apart before you get very far. Back to the bottom again…

Getting people together for a game is difficult enough that you don't really want to waste it on playing things you don't want to play. We are all sitting around pretending to be elves. Choose which ever kind of elf you like best.



#4 lupex

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:00 PM

I've been thinking that although the release of the books does follow the films it also follows the characters progressions;

Book 1 - is about Han's journey on the Fringe of society.

Book 2 - is about Leia's journey in the Rebellion.

and Book 3 - is about Luke's journey from farm boy to jedi.

so book 4 should be about being built by a slave and then progressing to god of the Ewoks  


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#5 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:58 PM

lupex said:

 

I've been thinking that although the release of the books does follow the films it also follows the characters progressions;

Book 1 - is about Han's journey on the Fringe of society.

Book 2 - is about Leia's journey in the Rebellion.

and Book 3 - is about Luke's journey from farm boy to jedi.

 

 

That's a very good point.  Though it does give some justification to the camp of folks who feel that The Force section was "tacked on", the proposed book schedule does match up quite nicely to each of the three iconic heroes.

Edit: In regards to the "tacked on" comment, I think the designers would have caught even more flack than that camp is dishing out for "lack of full-fledged Jedi" if there hadn't been any rules for Force-users at all.

 


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#6 mouthymerc

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:00 AM

I like that they have focused on the original trilogy. If they were going to include Jedi then the focus should be on other eras such as the Old Republic or the Legacy Era (comic) where Jedi and Sith are more abundant. But this works for me. Over the three books we will get a little more on the Force each time. So far I like the look and feel of the game as I have read it. Now to just play it.


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#7 Gamerunner

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:37 AM

I look at it as playing a fringer type colonist/smuggler/hunter whatever, that gets thrown into an outrageous situation, and then as your adventures progress you will be gaining some rather amazing capabilities.

When your reputation draws the attention of the rebellion (Book #2 is Age of Rebellion), you will be given a greater pourpose and may find even more exotic skills, maybe even force powers.

Then in (Book #3 is Force and Destiny) your very capable force using colconist/smuggler/hunter etc. jedi, will be able to save entire world from the evils of the empire.

Then your story will be able to be completed, (your hero saved the day) and you can start that process over,  to build another fantastic, epic story.

think of it as a 1st lvl thru 20 kind of  adventure.

But then again these ideas may be just wishfull thinking, but I can't wait for more.



#8 Tony P.

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 03:40 AM

 I think the reason there are no Jedi is because in every edition of the game Jedi have been a problem. In the movies by Empire Strikes Back, a barely trained  Luke is able to duel with Darth Vader for most of the third act. Han's fight with Vader lasts all of 3 seconds. Jedi are on a different power level in the Star Wars universe. When running a Star Wars game that was always a problem. Bob wants to be a rebel pilot, and Tim wants to be an assassin droid, so scaling encounters for them together isn't that hard since they are in the same ballpark. Then Mike comes along and wants to be a Jedi. Suddenly encounters get screwy since the Jedi should be able to handle anything the others can in a quarter of the time. 

If you try to scale back the Jedi, they become unrealistic (for a Jedi in the Star Wars universe anyway) and no one wants to play them. This was a complaint I heard a lot when people talked about the WOTC version. This is why they don't belong in a game like Edge of the Empire. 

A better comparison is the WH40k RPGs. Inquisition- a cut above the rest of the Empires chum but still not that special. Rogue Trader- much more powerful. Death Watch- A whole different level of characters. Since they use the same system they can be mixed but the players should know what they're getting into. 

My Inquisitor would not fair well against a horde like my Space Marine does. 

It seems that FFG is taking this approach for Star Wars. The common man or criminal in Edge, then those who step up to make a difference and have more training in Age, and the truly exceptional in Force.



#9 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:54 AM

Were the games swapped in order (Jedi, then Rebels, then Fringers) we would have threads full of people who didn't want to play Jedi. 

Once they decided to split up the games – and we won't know if this is a good move until we at least see game #2 – it was clear they would force some players to wait to play their favorite hero type. They chose to lead with the game that would allow for the greatest variety, and I think that was a good choice. 

This is from someone who has to wait to run a Tales of the Jedi/Old Republic Jedi-heavy game. 


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#10 Sarone

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:13 AM

I'm just hoping that all the non-Jedi don't get thrown to the curb when Jedi are more fleshed out.  But we'll see.



#11 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:25 AM

Sarone said:

I'm just hoping that all the non-Jedi don't get thrown to the curb when Jedi are more fleshed out.  But we'll see.

I think one of the core problems with Jedi in earlier SW RPGs was that it was too easy (especially under D6 and to a large extent in Saga Edition as well) for Jedi to have an amazingly broad range of abilities thanks to the way Force powers were implemented.

With the way FFG is breaking out effects into singularly themed power trees (hyper-awarness/minor mind reading, telekinesis, and mental influence), they are (at least currently) managing to avoid that.  If that holds true done the line (I hope it does) remains to be seen.


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#12 Sarone

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:58 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

I think one of the core problems with Jedi in earlier SW RPGs was that it was too easy (especially under D6 and to a large extent in Saga Edition as well) for Jedi to have an amazingly broad range of abilities thanks to the way Force powers were implemented.

With the way FFG is breaking out effects into singularly themed power trees (hyper-awarness/minor mind reading, telekinesis, and mental influence), they are (at least currently) managing to avoid that.  If that holds true done the line (I hope it does) remains to be seen.

Which is how it should be done.  The player and the character should grow in their power, not just be handed it to them.



#13 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 10:06 AM

Sarone said:

Which is how it should be done.  The player and the character should grow in their power, not just be handed it to them.

I agree entirely, and tried to stick to that mindset when playing Force-users.  I didn't always succeed (having a character that has been statistically proven to roll a nat 20 on every Use the Force check he makes doesn't help), but at least an effort was made to avoid gaming the the system too badly.


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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:49 AM

Sarone said:

Which is how it should be done.  The player and the character should grow in their power, not just be handed it to them.

 

You may find as you get older that the sprawling, near endless campaigns that made that possible in your younger days are no longer possible as people gain responsibilities and getting everyone to turn up becomes harder. As such, I think many people are going to do better just skipping to the bit they want to play.

Think of it as starting with Episode IV. If the campaign goes really well, maybe you can go back and run Episodes I - III later. :-)

(Incidentally, I learned the term In Medias Res from the first edition Star Wars Roleplaying game. It entertains me how much my approach to roleplaying reflects the GMs advice section in the book. I wonder if I got it from there, or if it was just serendipity.)



#15 Sarone

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:46 PM

AluminiumWolf said:

Sarone said:

Which is how it should be done.  The player and the character should grow in their power, not just be handed it to them.

 

You may find as you get older that the sprawling, near endless campaigns that made that possible in your younger days are no longer possible as people gain responsibilities and getting everyone to turn up becomes harder. As such, I think many people are going to do better just skipping to the bit they want to play.

Think of it as starting with Episode IV. If the campaign goes really well, maybe you can go back and run Episodes I - III later. :-)

(Incidentally, I learned the term In Medias Res from the first edition Star Wars Roleplaying game. It entertains me how much my approach to roleplaying reflects the GMs advice section in the book. I wonder if I got it from there, or if it was just serendipity.)

 

That's how it goes.  You hear about what can work and what won't, then you go for what you feel will work and not.



#16 I. J. Thompson

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 04:28 PM

 Great thoughts, IG-58. I'll take a well-conceived, well-played character over someone who can throw AT-ATs around with his mind any day. This is not to disparage anything anyone else wants to do, just my personal preference,



#17 cetiken

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:16 PM

AluminiumWolf said:

You may find as you get older that the sprawling, near endless campaigns that made that possible in your younger days are no longer possible as people gain responsibilities and getting everyone to turn up becomes harder. As such, I think many people are going to do better just skipping to the bit they want to play.

Think of it as starting with Episode IV. If the campaign goes really well, maybe you can go back and run Episodes I - III later. :-)

(Incidentally, I learned the term In Medias Res from the first edition Star Wars Roleplaying game. It entertains me how much my approach to roleplaying reflects the GMs advice section in the book. I wonder if I got it from there, or if it was just serendipity.)

I think you have a valid point here.  In liturature they call the classic farmboy to (galactic) hero a billingsroman or comming-of-age story. Not all stories are of this variety, though the low skill limits (2 ranks max) and rapid xp progression (10-15 per session) imply that as the default EotE mode. Personally I'd like to see options for seasoned characters and slower progression laid out and discussed in the GMs chapter. 

I continue to be happy with the lack of Jedi. 



#18 mouthymerc

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:42 AM

Being that this a beta and not the final product, we may yet see some options for starting and running games differently. As it is, it is not like these options can not be implemented now, such as handing out more xp to start with more seasoned characters or dispensing less xp during adventures to slow down advancement. These things are pretty straight-forward.

As to starting with Jedi, I can see the point that some want it. While many fans of Star Wars cut their teeth on the original trilogy, the fandom has increased to include those that were introduced through other ways such as the new trilogy, books, comics, etc. where Jedi were more prominent. But the choice was made to start the game centered on the events of the original trilogy, like it or not. Jedi were few and far between as to be all but non-existent. The little rules included work well to emulate this. I'm sure we will see a little more in the Rebellion book and then, of course, much more in the third Force and Destiny book.

The original trilogy is the most iconic of the Star Wars universe, so I can understand why they focused on it. They could have focused on other eras,such as the Old Republic or Legacy (comic) where Force use is more prevalent, but those, while popular, are not as iconic as the original trilogy. Do we have to wait for more Force? Yes. Personally I don't mind as I look forward to the progression. The basics of the Force look good so far and I look forward to seeing others aspects like healing, Force lightning or the seven forms implemented. You can choose to be all doom and gloom (we all know pessimists are never disappointed, right?) or you can give constructive input now so that when the rest of the game comes out it is improved upon.


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#19 IG-58

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:44 AM

Well spoken, Mouthymerc.



#20 HappyDaze

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:24 PM

Doc, the Weasel said:

Once they decided to split up the games – and we won't know if this is a good move until we at least see game #2 – it was clear they would force some players to wait to play their favorite hero type. They chose to lead with the game that would allow for the greatest variety, and I think that was a good choice. 

If the three game lines are to represent a progression of capabilities, then wouldn't the middle of the set present the greatest variety? It seems like the place where you could have both experienced versions of whatever fits into EotE, fleshed out heroes of the Rebellion, and even struggling/immature versions of what might come in F&D (like Jedi). I would have preferred if they had started in the middle and then fleshed out the two extremes thus ensuring the widest array of application right from the start.


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