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Does a havoc raider stand a realistic chance against lunar cruiser.


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#1 Arlandiel

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:09 PM

I believe that my group is at the end of the Lure of the Expanse adventure. We have already landed on the planet where the dread pearl should be located (unless the planet itself is the dread pearl), but my character (and fey of the others) have been having an ongoing grudge with Bastille.

As his escort ship and allies spread out near the planet to cut the access for other rogue traders (we have managed to get there before him, but the rest were not so lucky) I am wondering if there is not a bigger pearl in the see - Bastille's flagship.

I am wandering if we manage to arrange our allies to keep his escort engaged for a while - do we have a chance with a havoc merchant raider and the Adeptus Mechanicus Probe (provided we can convince the AI to assist us) against the general's cruiser.

I am guessing that if we get the element of surprise we can get to the cruiser's rear and manage to stay there avoiding broadside salvos, but we can't do **** against the teleportarium powered hit and runs. The Lord Admiral will probably make a landing on the planet so if we are able to jam the ships communication - at least we would cut his presence from the ship, but would that be enough.

Can anyone who is more familiar with the adventure give me a rough estimation of our chances without soiling any information that I should not know. I would gladly try to convince my fellow explorators for such insane move, but don't want to doom the campaign for less than 0 chance of success where nothing we can do can turn the game math in our favor.



#2 Iku Rex

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:18 PM

How is your ship armed? 



#3 Cymbel

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:13 AM

Torpedoes, just torpedoes. Lances are great, but best if the void shields are brought down first (which can be hard on a cruiser). But torpedoes sneak under the shields and though they hit the armor, they hit hard. The basic plasma torp is obtainable enough, the real question is which launcher. Voss is 12 + 2 with 2 tubes, it is small, but it sucks and will run dry fast. Gryphonne is the best overall, not too huge, but has 24 + 4 with 4 tubes and the smart way to use it is to fire 2 torps at a time, letting you fire every round with 2 or alternate rounds of 4. Mars and Fortis are great with 42 + 6 and 6 tubes (Fortis also gives the torps +2 Free VU on their first turn), but are bigger.

Essentially 2d10+14 (Reroll 1-3s, keep 2nd result), 60 VU max range (which is nice and lets you hang back) and ignore void shields (one of the greatest strengths of the big ships). May not win the fight, but can weaken it enough hopefully. Also, with your better speed and manueravibility you should try to get in and hit them in their blind arc with a full barrage. Just remember to mount a backup weapon with decent kick (Disruption would be out, you need to be able to kill, same with Grapple cannon). One of my favorite is sunsears, nice range, good kick and affordable. If you can wing it, maybe the plasma cannons in the book may work, also melta cannons (firing melta shells instead of the standard macrocannons) can start fires, which are a nice effect while plasma can effect multiple components.

In short, your ship is a glass cannon, so make sure it has a OOMPH to hit hard enough in the first couple hits (even better if you can ambush them in behind with a full torp barrage and anything else that hurts).



#4 Kiton

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:43 AM

Use Disruption Macros in one slot, And Mars-Patterns or better yet Ryza Plasmas if you can fit them in the other. You could get better, rarer, but its not a bad combo if you're not sure what you'll be facing.

Your first step is to use the plasmas to bring down shields. Their first volley, sadly, is going to be partly lost to shielding. But then 'short the flow' starts kicking in and suddenly that cruiser's big extra systems and advantages over your own are falling apart. You could shut them down with sustained fire almost entirely. Maybe even the LS.



#5 HappyDaze

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:10 AM

Cymbel said:

Torpedoes, just torpedoes. Lances are great, but best if the void shields are brought down first (which can be hard on a cruiser). But torpedoes sneak under the shields and though they hit the armor, they hit hard. The basic plasma torp is obtainable enough, the real question is which launcher. Voss is 12 + 2 with 2 tubes, it is small, but it sucks and will run dry fast. Gryphonne is the best overall, not too huge, but has 24 + 4 with 4 tubes and the smart way to use it is to fire 2 torps at a time, letting you fire every round with 2 or alternate rounds of 4. Mars and Fortis are great with 42 + 6 and 6 tubes (Fortis also gives the torps +2 Free VU on their first turn), but are bigger.

Essentially 2d10+14 (Reroll 1-3s, keep 2nd result), 60 VU max range (which is nice and lets you hang back) and ignore void shields (one of the greatest strengths of the big ships). May not win the fight, but can weaken it enough hopefully. Also, with your better speed and manueravibility you should try to get in and hit them in their blind arc with a full barrage. Just remember to mount a backup weapon with decent kick (Disruption would be out, you need to be able to kill, same with Grapple cannon). One of my favorite is sunsears, nice range, good kick and affordable. If you can wing it, maybe the plasma cannons in the book may work, also melta cannons (firing melta shells instead of the standard macrocannons) can start fires, which are a nice effect while plasma can effect multiple components.

In short, your ship is a glass cannon, so make sure it has a OOMPH to hit hard enough in the first couple hits (even better if you can ambush them in behind with a full torp barrage and anything else that hurts).

Two things;

1) Torpedoes are best for killing the ship, but not so great if he wants to capture it. For that, things like Barracks and a high Command skill are going to be key.

2) When firing torpedoes, go with max spreads every-other turn. It helps minimizes your exposure and maximizes your ability to penetrate turrets. Also be sure to fire the torps at close range (one turn's fight distance or less) because beyond that hitting in a one-on-one ship duel requires the other vessel to not manoeuvre for one or more turns.


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#6 Cymbel

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:07 PM

Kiton said:

Use Disruption Macros in one slot, And Mars-Patterns or better yet Ryza Plasmas if you can fit them in the other. You could get better, rarer, but its not a bad combo if you're not sure what you'll be facing.

Your first step is to use the plasmas to bring down shields. Their first volley, sadly, is going to be partly lost to shielding. But then 'short the flow' starts kicking in and suddenly that cruiser's big extra systems and advantages over your own are falling apart. You could shut them down with sustained fire almost entirely. Maybe even the LS.

Definitely another good combo, but the problem is getting in to deal the damage without getting pummeled yourself. On a side note, I like the Hecutor Plasma for its insanely long range, if they get the macrobattery upgrade (GQ I think gives +1 range and then lets you fire at 2x with no penalty), which would mean 24 range to start hitting with plasma before closing in to use the disruption cannons. Specially with the higher speed and maneuravibility, you could "kite" the larger ship. Plus, a solid long range gun and a nice alt effect one is a good combo. But for pure strength, you can't go much wrong with Torps again.

HappyDaze said:

Two things;

1) Torpedoes are best for killing the ship, but not so great if he wants to capture it. For that, things like Barracks and a high Command skill are going to be key.

2) When firing torpedoes, go with max spreads every-other turn. It helps minimizes your exposure and maximizes your ability to penetrate turrets. Also be sure to fire the torps at close range (one turn's fight distance or less) because beyond that hitting in a one-on-one ship duel requires the other vessel to not manoeuvre for one or more turns.

1.) Yes, but a raider has a bad chance of capturing a cruiser unless it is pretty crippled and they simply can't spare the space for barracks

 

2. How does it minimize exposure? And can turrets shoot down torps? I don/t remember that. And yes, it is harder to hit at long ranges, but you can hit



#7 HappyDaze

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 01:02 PM

The Hecutor-pattern Plasma Battery is not a legal fit for Frigates, Raiders, or Transports.


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#8 HappyDaze

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 01:15 PM

Cymbel said:

2. How does it minimize exposure? And can turrets shoot down torps? I don/t remember that. And yes, it is harder to hit at long ranges, but you can hit

It miinimizes exposure because you don't have to remain close-in during the turn spent reloading. Note that you also cannot reload a torpedo component on the turn it fires any of it's torpedoes. You cannot fire half and reload the other half in the same turn. As for shooting down torpedoes, look at the "Defensive Turrets" box on page 12 of Battlefleet Koronus.

And, assuming that the target can manoeuvre - a simple turn is all that is required to make it almost impossible for a single spread of torpedoes to strike a vessel that is beyond one turn's flight away. The answer for raider worlf packs is to use a swarm of vessels firing torpedoes to cover a wide area, but this isn't something a single vessel can do.

For a single vessel firing at a manoeuvring target defending with turrets, the only way to expect effective torpedo hits is to launch the bigget spread possible at a range where the torpedoes will impact immediately (usually 10 VU or less).


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#9 Cymbel

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 08:47 PM

HappyDaze said:

 

It miinimizes exposure because you don't have to remain close-in during the turn spent reloading. Note that you also cannot reload a torpedo component on the turn it fires any of it's torpedoes. You cannot fire half and reload the other half in the same turn. As for shooting down torpedoes, look at the "Defensive Turrets" box on page 12 of Battlefleet Koronus.

And, assuming that the target can manoeuvre - a simple turn is all that is required to make it almost impossible for a single spread of torpedoes to strike a vessel that is beyond one turn's flight away. The answer for raider worlf packs is to use a swarm of vessels firing torpedoes to cover a wide area, but this isn't something a single vessel can do.

For a single vessel firing at a manoeuvring target defending with turrets, the only way to expect effective torpedo hits is to launch the bigget spread possible at a range where the torpedoes will impact immediately (usually 10 VU or less).

Sorry about missing the problem with Hecuter Plasma.

A -10 Command Test can let you reload AND fire in the same term. And yes, you can't reload in the SAME turn after firing, but look at this.

Voss Pattern (4 Tubes)

1: 4 Tubes FULL, Short Salvo of 2 fired (2 remaining)

2. 2 Tubes FULL, 2 Torps Reload, Short Salvo of 2 fired (2 remaining)

3. 2 Tubes FULL, 2 Torps Reload, Short Salvo of 2 fired (2 remaining)

4. Repeat

And yeah, at the longest ranges they pale out, but they can deny areas (a plus) and you can always get lucky.

Plus, is there any other way for a Raider to have that much OOMPH in a single burst? (especially against multiple void shields)



#10 HappyDaze

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:35 PM

Torpedoes have a cost of an Acquisition each. Considering what else can be gained from an Acquisition, firing several spreads of Torpedoes is like throwing money away.


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#11 Cymbel

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:48 PM

Which is why we use them sparingly, but for close ranges (under 10 VUs) or their other uses they are amazing.






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