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Anyone else think that the new Star Wars: EotE Beginner Box is a great idea? How could this be applied to WFPR?


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#1 GoblynKing

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 12:40 PM

One of the original gripes that folks have had regarding WFRP 3rd Ed. was and still is it's entry price point. Sure you can argue that if you want to buy all three core rule books, plus a full set of polyhedrals to play D&D, you'll end up spending around the same amount as you would on the Core Boxed Set, but with D&D, as with a lot of other long lived rpgs…there's always existed the option to try the game out by purchasing a cheaper, more slimmed down version of the game. Just about every edition of D&D, Traveller, Savage Worlds, and even the older Star Wars RPGs, all had a cheaper entry point if you wanted the option.

This is currently how FFG are handling the new Star Wars license, by offering a "beginner box" (ala the newish D&D "Red Box" and the Pathfinder "Beginner Box") for a reduced price, that comes with pregen'd characters, a rules walk-through adventure (very "red box"), plus a full set of dice, and various visual accessories (maps, handouts, tokens). There are no rules for character creation, and from the description page, detailed rules are contained to only the tasks described in the written adventure.

Here's my thought. If FF are looking to renew interest in WFRP, while at the same time attracting people that haven't even tried it out, why not use the above model as an example by releasing a revised core box set, or a "beginners" set for WFRP? The box could include a complete adventure, with maps, handouts, locations cards, etc AND a "learn as you play" format with pregen'd PCs and a set of dice. As a current GM of the game, i'd purchase it based on it including a decent adventure alone, but throw in another set of dice and I'm sold! The only core components that would be absolutely necessary would be a copy of the basic actions, plus whatever extra actions beginning Rank 1/2 PCs could start with. All other info (talents, wounds, etc) could be included on the pregen character cards/sheets. This would appeal to anyone that was interested in trying the game out before, but was dissuaded by the cost of entry. They could follow this up by either reprinting the full core boxed set for anyone wanting to take it to the next step, OR depending upon feedback and the success to the beginner box, FF could instead take the opportunity to reprint the core rules in a different format…perhaps a large single volume tome, with optional rules for playing the game "lite"….maybe a separate "Core Vault" that would include all the cards, tokens, and standees, for those that want to play with the bits…..I'm just throwing ideas out.

My point is a newer more streamlined core boxed set may be the shot in the arm this edition needs to renew interest and show those of us that have hung in there that Fantasy Flight WANTS to not only keep WFRP alive, but that they want this game to thrive!



#2 Ceodryn

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 01:59 PM

Yes! Definitely Yes! 200% Yes!

I would not only buy this for myself (even though I own all of the WFRP3 line but the vaults) and I would drive to the closest game store (1h30 away) and personally GM that adventure with that beginner box to potential new players at least once a month for a few months.

So, I really really hope they are going to re-package WFRP3, because I surely am looking forward to this beginner box for SWEotE.

Cheers

Ceodryn



#3 Ceodryn

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:03 PM

 Another thought: I wonder if FFG are watching those boards (I guess yes because they implemented a lot of the changes discussed on those boards into SWEotE), but whether they do or not, maybe we should get organized and petition them to create such a model for WFRP3 (assuming there is interest to your post GoblinKing).

Cheers
Ceodryb



#4 flyndad

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:18 PM

YES !!!  Who would have thought??  An actual, defined, entry point!  It could be like a campaign box set but geared and marketed as "THE ENTRY POINT" for WFRP3!  This is the "tip of the spear" I was speaking of earlier. In the same vein as the Pathfinder beginner box. Just like you said, pre-gens, ability to create your own, some stand ups for the included campaign, some minor fiddly bits, etc.

This could be a big success IF it were done correctly. GOAL: offer a defined entry point. Make certain that it "leads" to the core set. In other words, don't let it "replace" the core set, but more like a pre-core set. Include a scaled down, well written, BASIC rules book, a BASIC background sheet, and other New components that wouldn't negate the core set,. aka PF.    COST : $35.00 U.S. I own the core set and have just purchased several boxed campaigns, ( should be here soon too.) and my thoughts are the same as Ceodryn. I would still purchase this and run demo games at my local store,..

EXCELLENT IDEA !!!!   FFG,.. DO THIS !!!  DO THIS!!  DO THIS!!!   A Pre Core Set!  Brilliant !!! 



#5 asri

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:41 PM

I had the same thoughts, and I hope that FFG already had the idea themselves. (But first, let them finish TEW. )



#6 GoblynKing

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:55 PM

asri said:

I had the same thoughts, and I hope that FFG already had the idea themselves. (But first, let them finish TEW. )

 

Here here! Let's hope that something like this is on the horizon for 2013!



#7 flyndad

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:35 AM

I assume you would NOT want to overlap too much with the Core Set. With that in mind, and intending for the Beginner Set to lead DIRECTLY to the Core Set, what aspects of the mechanic would you leave out?

After giving it some thought, my opinion would be to leave out the following: Party sheet, Talents cards, "Henchman", "trackers" other than initiative, and priests / piety, maybe some other rules left out as well.

I would include 4 ( NOT 3!) pregen characters with careers, AND 4 additional careers, ( New careers that have not been released yet) and instructions on how to create these new "simple" characters. 1 sheet of punch outs ( with enough creature stand ups to properly represent the monsters in the included mini campaign ( something that was NOT done in the core set and really pissed me off to tell ya the truth ). Just enough action cards for 4 players to have some of the BASIC actions and maybe 1 or 2 "special" actions for each character. Include the fatigue and stress mechanic and only a very few conditions, miscasts, and insanities and wounds.

As you have stated, The existing community would gobble this up just for the campaign and the dice. While the potential community could have a distinctive and affordable entry point.

I was wondering Goblin King, if you might want to re-start this thread with a better title. Having the title long and including star wars in it might turn some folks away. I almost didn't click on it because of the star wars in the title and I personally have no interest in that genre. Maybe "New WFRP3 Beginner Boxed Set" would gain more attention. We could then re-post the few responses that already exist here onto the new thread??   



#8 BigKahuna

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:34 AM

 Yeah I personally love "newbie" versions of games just because I very often introduce games to young kids and with kids, less is more.  I do think though that since they are doing it now (after release) its probobly a good idea to ensure that any content they release for it is new content rather than repeated content.  Like professions for example.  I would also make sure that the adventure itself is something that hasn't already been covered by existing content like the city of Ubersreik for example and we definitly don't need another reprint of the GM adventure which was include in the GM guide and in the Box Set, that was the one beef I had after buying the GM book.



#9 GoblynKing

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:34 AM

flyndad said:

I assume you would NOT want to overlap too much with the Core Set. With that in mind, and intending for the Beginner Set to lead DIRECTLY to the Core Set, what aspects of the mechanic would you leave out?

After giving it some thought, my opinion would be to leave out the following: Party sheet, Talents cards, "Henchman", "trackers" other than initiative, and priests / piety, maybe some other rules left out as well.

I would include 4 ( NOT 3!) pregen characters with careers, AND 4 additional careers, ( New careers that have not been released yet) and instructions on how to create these new "simple" characters. 1 sheet of punch outs ( with enough creature stand ups to properly represent the monsters in the included mini campaign ( something that was NOT done in the core set and really pissed me off to tell ya the truth ). Just enough action cards for 4 players to have some of the BASIC actions and maybe 1 or 2 "special" actions for each character. Include the fatigue and stress mechanic and only a very few conditions, miscasts, and insanities and wounds.

As you have stated, The existing community would gobble this up just for the campaign and the dice. While the potential community could have a distinctive and affordable entry point.

I was wondering Goblin King, if you might want to re-start this thread with a better title. Having the title long and including star wars in it might turn some folks away. I almost didn't click on it because of the star wars in the title and I personally have no interest in that genre. Maybe "New WFRP3 Beginner Boxed Set" would gain more attention. We could then re-post the few responses that already exist here onto the new thread??   

I'm actually not recommending they include a straight "rule book" at all. I'm thinking something more akin to the "learn as you play" style boxed sets of yor, like the original D&D red box, or the recent Star Wars: EotE Beginner Box. So the only rules included, are those that are necessary to play the included adventure. So, basic combat and action card use could be included, tracking of wounds, stress and fatigue…maybe rules for insanity if they would get some use in the adventure. I wouldn't exclude anything like Talents or Party Cards…the mechanic could simply already be built into the pregen'd party (i.e. the set includes a new Party Card for the pregen'd group). In other words, after the included adventure is played you wouldn't really be able to keep playing WFRP without purchasing the core rules (box or books), since the Beginners Box wouldn't include a complete set of rules.

Come to think of it, they could just leave out traditional Career, Talent, and Action cards altogether and just format the pregens onto pages to avoid reprinting of cards that already exist in other products. The flip side of this would be to include all the cards, but use previously unreleased content, new careers and actions…perhaps themed to fit the adventure. Maybe it's set in the canals of Marienberg and the PCs are members of the Deep Watch or the Black Hats, or just a motley crew of various down and outs (Chimney Sweep anyone?). This could also reintroduce the concept of beginning PCs being at the bottom rung of society when they begin playing…having to work their way up and survive long enough to become Assassins, Champions, and Wizards….a concept that many miss from previous editions. Anyway, I digress.



#10 Ceodryn

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:53 AM

flyndad said:

I assume you would NOT want to overlap too much with the Core Set. With that in mind, and intending for the Beginner Set to lead DIRECTLY to the Core Set, what aspects of the mechanic would you leave out?

After giving it some thought, my opinion would be to leave out the following: Party sheet, Talents cards, "Henchman", "trackers" other than initiative, and priests / piety, maybe some other rules left out as well.

I would include 4 ( NOT 3!) pregen characters with careers, AND 4 additional careers, ( New careers that have not been released yet) and instructions on how to create these new "simple" characters. 1 sheet of punch outs ( with enough creature stand ups to properly represent the monsters in the included mini campaign ( something that was NOT done in the core set and really pissed me off to tell ya the truth ). Just enough action cards for 4 players to have some of the BASIC actions and maybe 1 or 2 "special" actions for each character. Include the fatigue and stress mechanic and only a very few conditions, miscasts, and insanities and wounds.

As you have stated, The existing community would gobble this up just for the campaign and the dice. While the potential community could have a distinctive and affordable entry point.

I was wondering Goblin King, if you might want to re-start this thread with a better title. Having the title long and including star wars in it might turn some folks away. I almost didn't click on it because of the star wars in the title and I personally have no interest in that genre. Maybe "New WFRP3 Beginner Boxed Set" would gain more attention. We could then re-post the few responses that already exist here onto the new thread??   

I would mirror the box they are doing for SWEotE. I would leave out Character Creation and Advancement, and provide 4 pre-gens, then maybe more through the web. I would have a nice map of the adventure, probably a wilderness based instead of city based (although city with sewers and a chase, like roof top, could be fun). I agree on taking out party sheets, but talents are pretty cool. Each character could have 1, so it's always on. I wouldnt use actions cards, at least not the basic ones, but provide a sheet that has all actions on it. I wouldnt have any magic or divine power in that box, too complex.

Cheers

Ceodryn

 



#11 flyndad

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:11 PM

@ Goblin King and Ceodryn,

Agree on all counts,.. "Big Picture":  I think we are all on the same page; A VERY scaled down version of WFRP3 with a very cool adventure, with new content, that would leave players at the door step of the Core Set, with Great looking maps and handouts. Yes?

I am, to my own detriment, a true pessimist and even I can't come up with ANY negatives to FFG taking this approach with their next product after EW. Right off the top of my head it solves 3 things. 1. Most importantly it solves the entry point issue that is plaguing this game both in terms of what and how to "get into" the game, and overcomes any objection to price being an issue. ( If FFG were really  smart, they would consider this a "Loss Leader" and get it down to an absolutely irresistible price point.  $29.95 U.S. ?!?  2. It would let the existing players know that WFRP3 has indeed NOT been abandoned. 3. IT would expand the player base, meaning additional sales of already released product! 

Having stated the above, a beginner boxed set is NOT enough. It is most definitely needed, but without THE PROPER "Roll Out" the impact just won't be there. I don't know what is needed for FFG and or GW to get together and put their little thinking caps on, but the ENTIRE line NEEDS MORE presence in the game stores,.. I understand this is difficult. It is the proverbial catch 22,.. "Why stock items that won't sell, How to sell items not stocked." There MUST be a coordinated effort between GW, FFG, Retail, and Fans for this release to REALLY do the gangbusters that we all KNOW it can do. I believe with every bone in my body that WFRP3 could/should have a MUCH, MUCH larger % of the market share.

………….The only reason I thought to include "magic" is because it is so cool. Sometimes being a veteran clouds your memories of when You were an RPG "noob", I just thought to myself,"can you really release a FANTASY game and Not have a wizard? Just make him very simple, a 4 willpower, only 2 spells. one combat and the other a social or support and neither one costs more than 3 power to cast. Maybe don't include the channeling aspect and rules, but ya gotta have a wizard, right?  I don't know,.. sounds kinda weird to me not having a wizard type guy to play a fantasy based game with right off the bat,…   

I do see and understand your point of NOT including character generation, but I am still not totally sold. The pathfinder boxed set includes pregens AND lets you "create" a character AFTER you have gone through the "adventure". From my understanding, they included 4 additional ultra-mini, One Sheet type adventures in the boxed set, in addition to the main campaign. This lets the "New", uninitiated, player go through the "main" campaign with a pregen, and have lots of fun while learning the rules, Then it lets them in 1 step further, by being able to make THEIR OWN character from scratch and adventure with him,… a little,.. Just enough that the player REALLY wants his new creation to adventure further and ..Taa-Daa!!  Another Core Set flies off the shelves,…

None the less, point being is, I would like to hear someone take the other side of this argument and tell us why a "Beginner Boxed Set" would be a BAD idea and what the negatives are, because I just don't see any at the moment,…     



#12 asri

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:30 AM

flyndad said:

None the less, point being is, I would like to hear someone take the other side of this argument and tell us why a "Beginner Boxed Set" would be a BAD idea and what the negatives are, because I just don't see any at the moment,…     

Fans would be whining, of course.

Seriously, I guess that FFG might already have thought about this. Whether they have, and whether they've made a decision in this regard, we simply don't know.

Negatives, huh? It could be that the cost for developing and producing such a box doesn't pay off, especially if the product has already been on the market for some time. Perhaps FFG has come to the conclusion that the RPG market has already made up their mind about WFRP3, and that a beginner's box won't sway enough (or bring in enough newbies) to pay off. Or they reckon that a new supplement or scenario will bring in more money than such a beginner's box. Just guessing. Maybe the talk would be: "this box comes three years to late", and that's that?

Well, to be honest, I'd really like to see such a product, and I do think it's a good idea. Let's just wait and see what FFG does.



#13 flyndad

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 09:02 AM

While it is true, that "we'll just wait and see what FFG does". I do NOT think it is in their best interest.

Everyone KNOWS they read these forums and posts even if they don't respond. I would bet that GW reads these posts as well.

That having been said, FFG and GW do have a serious issue on their hands at this point, or very, very near this point. If I understand this correctly there are MANY "fans" / customers that are getting more than a little grumpy about this edition as a whole, and it is much MORE than lack of communication with their customers. It is a whole host of things that have been mismanaged from the onset of this edition.

Now I FULLY believe in giving credit where credit is due. FFG and the team that created this version created the single best RPG game ever published. Their creativity and thoughtfulness are true genius. The upper management and personnel acquisition departments have done a tremendous job in bringing the right, creative people in to develop. However,…. The "roll out", marketing, sales, organization, writing, editing, and general license management have been utter failures. Abysmal  forethought, horrible decisions, lack of support, shunning the customer base, and some of the worst utilization of valuable resources I have ever witnessed in a company, just to name a few. 

Now, if the fan base is somewhat divided and disorganized you can bet a dollar to doughnuts that there are those at FFG that feel the same way. They might not be voicing such opinions,…. yet, but rest assured, they are there and at GW as well. GW has a nice money machine going over there and I would confidently state that the bread and butter of their profit comes from the manufacture and sale of miniatures, and they are VERY nervous. The recent advent of cheap, high quality office and home use 3D printers could change the miniatures market seemingly overnight, so I don't think I am too far off in stating that GW will be / is looking for as many revenue streams as they can get right now.

A combination of ALL the above factors and others  unmentioned, could create the perfect storm. This is what I meant when I said I do not think it is in their best interest. I think we are all at least somewhat familiar with what happened over at wotc, and now PF is consuming a very large chunk of the market and has done so in a relatively short period of time,………    BE VERY CAREFUL FFG. Proceed with extreme caution and smart business decisions lest you create a PF version of WFRP3.      

 

   



#14 GoblynKing

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 01:19 PM

flyndad said:

While it is true, that "we'll just wait and see what FFG does". I do NOT think it is in their best interest.

Everyone KNOWS they read these forums and posts even if they don't respond. I would bet that GW reads these posts as well.

That having been said, FFG and GW do have a serious issue on their hands at this point, or very, very near this point. If I understand this correctly there are MANY "fans" / customers that are getting more than a little grumpy about this edition as a whole, and it is much MORE than lack of communication with their customers. It is a whole host of things that have been mismanaged from the onset of this edition.

Now I FULLY believe in giving credit where credit is due. FFG and the team that created this version created the single best RPG game ever published. Their creativity and thoughtfulness are true genius. The upper management and personnel acquisition departments have done a tremendous job in bringing the right, creative people in to develop. However,…. The "roll out", marketing, sales, organization, writing, editing, and general license management have been utter failures. Abysmal  forethought, horrible decisions, lack of support, shunning the customer base, and some of the worst utilization of valuable resources I have ever witnessed in a company, just to name a few. 

Now, if the fan base is somewhat divided and disorganized you can bet a dollar to doughnuts that there are those at FFG that feel the same way. They might not be voicing such opinions,…. yet, but rest assured, they are there and at GW as well. GW has a nice money machine going over there and I would confidently state that the bread and butter of their profit comes from the manufacture and sale of miniatures, and they are VERY nervous. The recent advent of cheap, high quality office and home use 3D printers could change the miniatures market seemingly overnight, so I don't think I am too far off in stating that GW will be / is looking for as many revenue streams as they can get right now.

A combination of ALL the above factors and others  unmentioned, could create the perfect storm. This is what I meant when I said I do not think it is in their best interest. I think we are all at least somewhat familiar with what happened over at wotc, and now PF is consuming a very large chunk of the market and has done so in a relatively short period of time,………    BE VERY CAREFUL FFG. Proceed with extreme caution and smart business decisions lest you create a PF version of WFRP3.      

I'm a bit confused as to what your point is exactly. Are you saying that FF should NOT attempt to release some sort of low priced "beginner box" for WFRP because it will "divide the fan base"? You also sight Pathfinder/Paizo splitting away from WotC as an example…how exactly would releasing a starter kit/boxed set be anything like this?

The idea is to release a "learn as you play" adventure that would include pregenerated player characters and a copy of the basic actions (ala the ones included in the back of the Player's Guide). The adventure could be presented as a WFRP "lite" OR could include all the bits a pieces necessary for the adventure, but nothing more. This would create a cheaper entry point for those wanting to try the game out AND would give the rest of us a great adventure, plus a set of pregen'd characters to use with whatever we wish. If FF decided to include Location/Item Cards as well, then all the better for those of us that would like new material of that sort.



#15 flyndad

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 06:14 AM

I think it would be a FANTASTIC idea to release a beginner box set. (please see my recent post under the new heading).

I suppose what I was getting at is the seeming lack of absorption of any input from the fan community by FFG. They can't even tell their customers/players that they have more dice on order.

I am a strong proponent of a  Beginner Box Set!  see prior posts by me on this thread.






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