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R2 Unit vs Damaged Engine


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#1 TnT

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:31 PM

 The R2 astromech states:  You may treat all 1- and 2-speed maneuvers as green maneuvers.

 

The Damaged engine cards states:  Treat all turn maneuvers (hard right and hard left) as red maneuvers.

 

Which one takes precedence?



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Posted 17 September 2012 - 03:01 PM

 I would say the damage card takes precedence. When the rulebook speaks of contradicting cards it says that if one card allows something and another forbids it, then it is forbidden. R2 allows all manouevres of 1 and 2 to be green, the damage card forbids any hard lefts or rights from being green as they must be red, therefore it stands to reason that the damage card wins out in this case. At least that is how I think it should be the way that the rules are written.



#3 Daveydavedave

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 03:50 PM

The R2 unit makes 1 and 2 maneuvers green.  The damage card makes all hard turns red.

Both happen.  The R2 unit still makes non-hard, 1 and 2 speed turns green.  The damage card now makes all hard turns red.

 

First you had a basic ship, then you upgraded it with an R2 unit which improved maneuvering, then you got critically hit so that your ship wont turn properly.  The damage card is last, so its most relevant to the final result of the sum of all effects.  

 

 



#4 Budgernaut

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:34 PM

 I'm not sold on the above ruling. I think this needs to be FAQed eventually. To me it seems that damage cards should overwrite all other effects because the point is that things are getting damaged that weren't damaged before.


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#5 Daveydavedave

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:52 PM

Budgernaut said:

 I'm not sold on the above ruling. I think this needs to be FAQed eventually. To me it seems that damage cards should overwrite all other effects because the point is that things are getting damaged that weren't damaged before.

I think you're agreeing with us…

We're saying the damage effect (all hard turns are red) overrides the R2 unit, but the R2 unit still makes all other (non-hard turn) 1&2 maneuvers green.



#6 Budgernaut

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:57 PM

 Oh. You're right.


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#7 dbmeboy

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:08 AM

Strombole said:

 I would say the damage card takes precedence. When the rulebook speaks of contradicting cards it says that if one card allows something and another forbids it, then it is forbidden. R2 allows all manouevres of 1 and 2 to be green, the damage card forbids any hard lefts or rights from being green as they must be red, therefore it stands to reason that the damage card wins out in this case. At least that is how I think it should be the way that the rules are written.

I agree with your conclusion, but I don't think your reasoning really works.  You could just as easily state that the R2 card forbids speed 1 and 2 moves from being red as they must be green.  The problem with the reasoning is that neither really forbids or allows anything.  Instead, they each try to institute mutually exclusive conditions.



#8 Daveydavedave

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:27 AM

 I understand that in logical terms this is nebulous. However, the intent seems clear to me. The damage effect replaces the turn icons on the wheel with red whether they were green from an astromech or white by default.

Also, the rules do say that if one card allows something and another forbids it, then it is forbidden. Astromech allows green moves, damage forbids white and green hard turns (requires red). 

 

 



#9 ArcticSnake

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:16 AM

dbmeboy said:

Strombole said:

 

 I would say the damage card takes precedence. When the rulebook speaks of contradicting cards it says that if one card allows something and another forbids it, then it is forbidden. R2 allows all manouevres of 1 and 2 to be green, the damage card forbids any hard lefts or rights from being green as they must be red, therefore it stands to reason that the damage card wins out in this case. At least that is how I think it should be the way that the rules are written.

 

 

I agree with your conclusion, but I don't think your reasoning really works.  You could just as easily state that the R2 card forbids speed 1 and 2 moves from being red as they must be green.  The problem with the reasoning is that neither really forbids or allows anything.  Instead, they each try to institute mutually exclusive conditions.

By that reasoning would that mean that the damage card allows you to use red hard turns?

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that since your hard turns are green to begin with the damage card forbids you from using those green hard turns ever again?

 


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#10 Budgernaut

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:04 AM

 I just found a similar problem. In Rebel vs. Rebel matches, if a Rebel ship with R2 Astromech does a Koiogran turn, then gets ionized, on it's next turn, does it's forward movement remove the stress token or not? The ion makes it a white straight 1, but R2 Astromech makes all 1 and 2 speed maneuvers green. Which happens first?

EDIT: Thinking more on this issue, I think R2 should be overruled by the Damaged Engine and Ion Cannon simply because they are more recent, R2 having been in effect since the beginning of the game.


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#11 dbmeboy

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:38 AM

Budgernaut said:

 EDIT: Thinking more on this issue, I think R2 should be overruled by the Damaged Engine and Ion Cannon simply because they are more recent, R2 having been in effect since the beginning of the game.

I tend to agree with you… but I can't point to any rule in the game about time-stamp order mattering at all (or any other rule that would clearly resolve the question).



#12 Budgernaut

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:09 PM

dbmeboy said:

 

Budgernaut said:

 

 EDIT: Thinking more on this issue, I think R2 should be overruled by the Damaged Engine and Ion Cannon simply because they are more recent, R2 having been in effect since the beginning of the game.

 

 

I tend to agree with you… but I can't point to any rule in the game about time-stamp order mattering at all (or any other rule that would clearly resolve the question).

 

 

Yeah. Definitely needs a FAQ response.


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#13 Fabster

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:58 PM

Budgernaut said:

 I just found a similar problem. In Rebel vs. Rebel matches, if a Rebel ship with R2 Astromech does a Koiogran turn, then gets ionized, on it's next turn, does it's forward movement remove the stress token or not? The ion makes it a white straight 1, but R2 Astromech makes all 1 and 2 speed maneuvers green. Which happens first?

EDIT: Thinking more on this issue, I think R2 should be overruled by the Damaged Engine and Ion Cannon simply because they are more recent, R2 having been in effect since the beginning of the game.

 

I don't think that requires any FAQ, Ion cannon disables you from performing a maneuver therefore you couldn't perform a green maneuver and remove stress. That is one of the most efficient ways to use Ion cannon. 



#14 dbmeboy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:27 AM

Fabster said:

 

I don't think that requires any FAQ, Ion cannon disables you from performing a maneuver therefore you couldn't perform a green maneuver and remove stress. That is one of the most efficient ways to use Ion cannon. 

In general this is true.  The ion effect causes you to do a speed-1 straight maneuver that is white.  However, the R2 Unit upgrade changes all speed 1 and 2 maneuvers to green.  Currently, there are no solid rules to determine how to resolve conflicts like that.  I think most of us assume that the ion cannon (or critical damage card, in the other conflict that's come up like this) will win out, but there's nowhere in the rules we can point to prove that.



#15 Budgernaut

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:17 AM

Fabster said:

Budgernaut said:

 

 I just found a similar problem. In Rebel vs. Rebel matches, if a Rebel ship with R2 Astromech does a Koiogran turn, then gets ionized, on it's next turn, does it's forward movement remove the stress token or not? The ion makes it a white straight 1, but R2 Astromech makes all 1 and 2 speed maneuvers green. Which happens first?

EDIT: Thinking more on this issue, I think R2 should be overruled by the Damaged Engine and Ion Cannon simply because they are more recent, R2 having been in effect since the beginning of the game.

 

 

 

I don't think that requires any FAQ, Ion cannon disables you from performing a maneuver therefore you couldn't perform a green maneuver and remove stress. That is one of the most efficient ways to use Ion cannon. 

Good thinking, but alas, when ionized, you still "execute" the straight-white-1 maneuver. If R2 Astromech turns it green, you still execute a straight-green-1 maneuver so you'd still remove the stress. Now, both the ion cannon and the rulebook section on removing stress use the word "execute" or a variation of it to refer to performing a maneuver. Therefore, Y-wings do not prevent you from "executing" a maneuver, or as you say, "performing" a maneuver. All ion cannon does is force you to execute a specific maneuver. But since R2 Astromech treats all 1- and 2-speed maneuvers as green, do you still get to treat the maneuver as green? It really depends on whether the ion cannons and Damaged Engine critical hit cards come before or after R2 Astromech makes them green.

But I'm reading the card again, and ion cannon says, "The owner moves the ship as though it were assigned a straight-white-1 maneuver." This sounds like you are not executing a maneuver so should not, as you say, get to turn it green. However, immediately after that sentence it says, "After executing this maneuver . . ." which uses the term "execute" that is referred to by the rulebook and R2-D2 to mean moving your ship. They shouldn't have used the word "executing."


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#16 MilesD37

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

my friends and i have went outside game rules to resolve conflicts lime this (ion v. r2) that arent very clear, we think of it in terms of what would actually happen to a starship is a real dogfight… (which opened a new can of worms really, but ill cover that in a minute) when shot with an ion canon, yiu are not executing anything, your ship is dead in the water as it were… even though the card uses the word execute at the end… your pilot, if stressed, would stay stressed due to the added stress of being next to helpless… seems to me that is closest to rule set and "reality"

now, the new can of worms- in space you cant slow withouy reverse thrusters, so you should move straight at whatever speed your last manuver was… which also would mean yiu shouls be able to barrel roll or target lock either… target lock i accept more, but a barrel roll in atmosphere would be fine woyhout thrusters, but in space you dont have rudders for turning… (but thats just symantics, lol)



#17 kmanweiss

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:41 AM

I don't view ships affected by ion weaponry as actually performing a manuever.  They are simply drifting.  No manuever is selected, therefor there is nothing for the R2 unit to affect.

As for the R2 unit for the critical hit, I honestly think the R2 overrules the damage effect on the conflicting manuevers.  Determination outright cancels damage cards, why wouldn't the R2 unit still allow green moves.  The critical card would still get to affect other manuevers, just not those adjusted by the R2 unit who's role is to make those manuevers easier on the pilot.  The determination card cancels a small subset of critical damage cards.  Why wouldn't the R2 unit also cancel a small subset of damage cards (or in fact a portion of the critical effect while the damage remains).  Sure, determination outright tells you to cancel the damage, but the R2 outright tells you to treat all of those manuevers as green.

If anything, couldn't they cancel each other out.  So the manuevers affected by both cards are simply back to their default (white in most cases).

Think of it this way.  A white turn 1 is made easier (+1) by the droid turning it from a white to a green.  The critical damage would typically make the manuever harder (-1) by turning a white into a red.  So white +1 = green.  White - 1 = red.  White + 1 - 1 = white.  Certainly no presidence in the rules for this, but it would make sense to a degree.  The critical damage makes the manuevers harder, but the droid is still compensating to make the manuevers easier.



#18 KarmikazeKidd

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:43 AM

 I'm typing up the post for this topic on the FAQ I made as we speak. The stance I'm taking is that this is still highly debatable and could go either way though we seem to agree that the damage OUGHT to take precedence. We just can't definitively prove it from the rules. However, one additional piece of evidence I'm going to include (and determine more in favor of damage taking precedence) is that the R2 says 'may treat…' whereas the damage card leaves out the 'may' and just commands you to treat hard turn maneuvers a certain way. Similar to 'forbid' I feel this overrides optional abilities. It's as if the game is telling you "I don't care what I said you could do before, I'm telling you to make this decision." Please….discuss.



#19 Baphomet69

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:47 AM

 The ion hit means you don't even use a maneuver dial next turn, so YOU aren't 'performing' a 'maneuver' at all. As others have said, it's just a small drift while your ship's systems (and likely R2 as well) 'reboot'. And the ion effect card states 'owner moves ship AS IF performing a white 1 maneuver.



#20 Budgernaut

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:43 AM

Baphomet69 said:

 The ion hit means you don't even use a maneuver dial next turn, so YOU aren't 'performing' a 'maneuver' at all. As others have said, it's just a small drift while your ship's systems (and likely R2 as well) 'reboot'. And the ion effect card states 'owner moves ship AS IF performing a white 1 maneuver.

There is no "performing" in relation to movement. In this game, you can "perform" attacks or actions. Maneuvers are not "performed", they are "executed". The ion card specifically uses the word execute. My opinion: they shouldn't have, because I think they didn't mean it, as evidenced by the fact that the first line of that paragraph states: "moves the ship as if it were assigned a [straight-white-1] maneuver." It seems to me that they want ion cannon to move the ship without the pilot actually piloting it, but by using the word "executes" in the following sentence, they clouded the issue.


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--Count Dooku





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