Jump to content



Photo

Torpedoes and Missiles not worth it?


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 Chaplin717

Chaplin717

    Member

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:52 PM

I know it's early, and as a newbie I don't want to cry foul yet, but it seems like the expendable ammunition choices are over priced.  They are descent, and can be nice, but for four points it seems like an R2 unit is much more optimal.  Also in a game where ships are universal in stats, all you are paying for in a higher point ship is usually a higher pilot score (and sometimes an ability).  This already seems to push the meta in the direction of buying as many (cheap) ships as possible and maybe bringing one elite pilot.  Also in such lists, I am not seeing much in the way of four point ammunition choices.

Maybe if missiles and torpedoes were 1 or 2 points, but at 4… it just seems like you will nearly always have a better way to spend those points.  Again, I am new, but after a weekend with the game and just starting to think about squadron builds, I just can't see any sane person taking a Y-Wing and putting two torpedoes on it.  Or a squadron of just pilots all sporting ammunition upgrades.  Am I missing something?  Are one shot ammuntion upgrades the goat cards of the set and only to be used for theme?



#2 drkjedi35

drkjedi35

    Member

  • Members
  • 389 posts

Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:17 PM

Chaplin717 said:

I know it's early, and as a newbie I don't want to cry foul yet, but it seems like the expendable ammunition choices are over priced.  They are descent, and can be nice, but for four points it seems like an R2 unit is much more optimal.  Also in a game where ships are universal in stats, all you are paying for in a higher point ship is usually a higher pilot score (and sometimes an ability).  This already seems to push the meta in the direction of buying as many (cheap) ships as possible and maybe bringing one elite pilot.  Also in such lists, I am not seeing much in the way of four point ammunition choices.

Maybe if missiles and torpedoes were 1 or 2 points, but at 4… it just seems like you will nearly always have a better way to spend those points.  Again, I am new, but after a weekend with the game and just starting to think about squadron builds, I just can't see any sane person taking a Y-Wing and putting two torpedoes on it.  Or a squadron of just pilots all sporting ammunition upgrades.  Am I missing something?  Are one shot ammuntion upgrades the goat cards of the set and only to be used for theme?

Nothing is worth the cost if it doesn't work.  But when it does, it can be great.  The key is the setup.  I typically only use Proton Torpedoes after I have acquired a Target Lock (which is required) AND a Focus token.  Versus a TIE Fighter (even at Range 3), an X-wing will roll 4 attack dice and the TIE will only get 2 Defense dice.  Use the focus and you can change all of your focus icons to hits.  Many times it just takes one Proton Torpedo to destroy a TIE.  Its not about whether or not its worth the 4 points.  Its about whether or not you can make the most of those 4 points.  Four Rookie Pilots each with Proton Torpedoes can be a nasty squad.  If you don't think so, give it a shot and see what happens.

Roy



#3 AlKusanagi

AlKusanagi

    Member

  • Members
  • 65 posts

Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:35 PM

I've found them to be awesome with Y-wings. You can snag a target lock at any time, hit them with an ion cannon blast to slow them to a crawl, then easily maneuver into perfect position behind them for a kill, especially since using one effectively doubles the Y-wing's attack. Also, with the TIE Advanced, cluster rockets can make for a nasty surprise.



#4 Daveydavedave

Daveydavedave

    Member

  • Members
  • 291 posts

Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:39 PM

drkjedi35 said:

Chaplin717 said:

 

I know it's early, and as a newbie I don't want to cry foul yet, but it seems like the expendable ammunition choices are over priced.  They are descent, and can be nice, but for four points it seems like an R2 unit is much more optimal.  Also in a game where ships are universal in stats, all you are paying for in a higher point ship is usually a higher pilot score (and sometimes an ability).  This already seems to push the meta in the direction of buying as many (cheap) ships as possible and maybe bringing one elite pilot.  Also in such lists, I am not seeing much in the way of four point ammunition choices.

Maybe if missiles and torpedoes were 1 or 2 points, but at 4… it just seems like you will nearly always have a better way to spend those points.  Again, I am new, but after a weekend with the game and just starting to think about squadron builds, I just can't see any sane person taking a Y-Wing and putting two torpedoes on it.  Or a squadron of just pilots all sporting ammunition upgrades.  Am I missing something?  Are one shot ammuntion upgrades the goat cards of the set and only to be used for theme?

 

 

Nothing is worth the cost if it doesn't work.  But when it does, it can be great.  The key is the setup.  I typically only use Proton Torpedoes after I have acquired a Target Lock (which is required) AND a Focus token.  Versus a TIE Fighter (even at Range 3), an X-wing will roll 4 attack dice and the TIE will only get 2 Defense dice.  Use the focus and you can change all of your focus icons to hits.  Many times it just takes one Proton Torpedo to destroy a TIE.  Its not about whether or not its worth the 4 points.  Its about whether or not you can make the most of those 4 points.  Four Rookie Pilots each with Proton Torpedoes can be a nasty squad.  If you don't think so, give it a shot and see what happens.

Roy

drkjedi35 said:

 

 

Nothing is worth the cost if it doesn't work.  But when it does, it can be great.  The key is the setup.  I typically only use Proton Torpedoes after I have acquired a Target Lock (which is required) AND a Focus token.  Versus a TIE Fighter (even at Range 3), an X-wing will roll 4 attack dice and the TIE will only get 2 Defense dice.  Use the focus and you can change all of your focus icons to hits.  Many times it just takes one Proton Torpedo to destroy a TIE.  Its not about whether or not its worth the 4 points.  Its about whether or not you can make the most of those 4 points.  Four Rookie Pilots each with Proton Torpedoes can be a nasty squad.  If you don't think so, give it a shot and see what happens.

Roy

 

Agreed.  Focus is clutch when using torps.  

 

Ties get 3 defensive dice tho, possibly 4 if you are at range 3 and they have no agility critical effects from previous damage.  

 

If you use target lock you get 3 dice with a re-roll, but if you use torpedoes you get 4 dice with no re-rolls and one focus result becoming a crit.

The odds are better with torps than simply using the target lock, the question is: is it really worth the 4 points to purchase proton torpedoes?  For a Y-Wing its a bit more interesting because it effectively doubles your firepower that round (from 2 dice to 4).



#5 Daveydavedave

Daveydavedave

    Member

  • Members
  • 291 posts

Posted 16 September 2012 - 07:46 PM

 Oops!  Range bonuses only apply for PRIMARY WEAPONS.  So that makes torpedoes all the better at range 3.

Normally if you shoot your cannons the tie fighter gets 4 defense dice for being at range 3, but if you shoot proton torpedoes he only gets his standard 3 (based on his agility stat).

Don't expect to one shot a tie (although there is a small chance), but be happy with 1 damage and stoked with 2 and you will start to see the value in long range sniping a tie on turn 1 or on a turn where you find yourself at long range and he is without defensive actions (focus or evade).

 

If you get in to range 1, blasters + focus+ target lock is the ticket.  4 dice + rerolls + focus results = statistically LOTS of terrible terrible damage.  Good luck getting that scenario to happen against barrel rolling swarms of mosquitoes.



#6 DavicusPrime

DavicusPrime

    Member

  • Members
  • 206 posts

Posted 16 September 2012 - 08:18 PM

Main point: Torpedoes are a long range weapon with the potential of doing some nasty damage.  They don't beat getting in Range 1 with an X-Wing, but they beat any ship's primary weapons at range band 3.  Y-wings benefit more, but a 4 Dice attack against a 3 Dice Defense at range 3 is good for both ships.  Even if you only get 1 damage, if its a crit, which Torps increase the odds of inflicting, it can soften up the enemy when it'd be a long shot just to hurt them at all with your primaries.

I eagerly await the opportunity to test out my theories.

-DavicusPrime



#7 Shanturin

Shanturin

    Member

  • Members
  • 61 posts

Posted 16 September 2012 - 11:01 PM

In my experience, missiles/torpedoes are almost always worth its price. In my 100 point Alliance list I use Garven Dreis/Dutch Vander with R5-K6 combo, both with torpedoes. How it works?

Garven moves first (they share the same skill of 6), gets Focus token. Dutch follows, acquiring Target Lock, and so does Garven. Then an X-wing fires first, possibly using his focus, granting it to… Y-wing, who then proceeds with his volley (to boot, after you spend your Lock to fire torpedoes with Vander, R5-K6 can immediately get you another one you can use to re-roll… and then Garven gets another too!). Depending on who you shoot at, the result of the salvo should be either one destroyed TIE, or one close-to-be-destroyed TIE, or two scratched TIE's (if you acquired Locks on diffrent ships).

The third ship in this squadron is Luke. He usually softens one of the ships I plan to bombard with torpedoes, possibly using up enemy Focus or Evade that can thwart my plan.

 

Also, the Missiles upgrades works really well.

However, I must admit I consider Concussion Missiles to be superior. First of all, you get to change one of your blanks into the hit. That's huge bonus, since you should have Focus anyways, so you should not worry about any eyes rolled. An ideal salvo should get you four hits. Against both X-wing and Y-wing it means at least it shields are down. Even if you score three hits there's still chance for the failed roll on the opponent's side.

When shooting Cluster Missiles:

A) you have to be firing on closer range, and you want to spend your Focus on the attack, so without extra dice for being at Range 3 you're more exposed to enemy's retaliation or pre-emptive strike.

B) you can use your Focus for only one of the two three-diced rolls, so if you roll eyes on both, you're not able to do anything about it.

C) if you roll blank, than you can do nothing about it.

D) your opponent gets to roll twice; of course he also can use Focus on only one of his rolls. This calculates better against an Y-wing, since you roll 4 attack dice more then he rolls defence dice, but against an X-wing you get only 2 more dice, and you hit less reliably.

 

To sum up: using Cluster Missiles is more based on your good rolls, calculates better against an Y-wing and requires you to get closer. Concussion Missiles let you hit your enemy more reliably while staying further.

Of course you can fire from outside the enemy's ships' firing arcs, but secondary weapons are usually fired early-on for maximum damage and quick elimination. And, if you keep your Missiles/Torpedoes for mid-late game you risk being shot down without firing it.


May my blade be sharp. May I sculpt a new fate for my enemies.


#8 DavicusPrime

DavicusPrime

    Member

  • Members
  • 206 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:01 AM

Shanturin said:

 

…R5-K6 can immediately get you another one you can use to re-roll… 

 

 

I agree with your assessment of secondary weapons.  But the above is not legal.  The text of the R5-K6 states that you specifically can't use the Target Lock it grants in the same turn it was granted.

I'm going to have to give your squad build a try though.  Sounds nasty all around.

-DavicusPrime



#9 Shanturin

Shanturin

    Member

  • Members
  • 61 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:42 AM

Ooops, you're rigth. I was writing this post without looking at the cards, and since I've never needed that re-roll, I've get cought by enthusiasm and forgot about that part of R5 rule.


May my blade be sharp. May I sculpt a new fate for my enemies.


#10 Chaplin717

Chaplin717

    Member

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:38 AM

 This is all good information and I will just keep on trying expendable munitions to see how I like them (though I still don't see how a one shot weapon that MAY do 2 or 3 points on a lucky hit is of the same value as a new shield every round a green maneuver is used for the entire game).

However, what I am learning is it seems I was too generous with torpedo rolls.  I just re-read the rules and am unclear on when a "target lock token is used".  It sounds like from the responses above that the lock is used up and discarded just to fire the torp (and thus is not available to discard for a normal lock on shot) so torpedo shots lack the normal benefit of re-roll the to hit rolls.  Is that right?  It does seem plausible that one of the following is the rules:

1:  Using a secondary weapon requires a target lock.  Discard the lock to use the weapon, then follow the rules on the card.  As the lock on was discarded to fire, it may not be used again to re-roll dice as in a lock attack with primary the primary weapon.

Or is it

2:  using a secondary weapon requires a target lock.  Discard the lock to make a lock on attack but use range, damage, and special effects of the secondary weapon for the lock on attack.  As a lock on attack, any dice may be re-rolled after the attack roll.



#11 Daveydavedave

Daveydavedave

    Member

  • Members
  • 291 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:47 AM

Chaplin717 said:

 This is all good information and I will just keep on trying expendable munitions to see how I like them (though I still don't see how a one shot weapon that MAY do 2 or 3 points on a lucky hit is of the same value as a new shield every round a green maneuver is used for the entire game).

However, what I am learning is it seems I was too generous with torpedo rolls.  I just re-read the rules and am unclear on when a "target lock token is used".  It sounds like from the responses above that the lock is used up and discarded just to fire the torp (and thus is not available to discard for a normal lock on shot) so torpedo shots lack the normal benefit of re-roll the to hit rolls.  Is that right?  It does seem plausible that one of the following is the rules:

1:  Using a secondary weapon requires a target lock.  Discard the lock to use the weapon, then follow the rules on the card.  As the lock on was discarded to fire, it may not be used again to re-roll dice as in a lock attack with primary the primary weapon.

Or is it

2:  using a secondary weapon requires a target lock.  Discard the lock to make a lock on attack but use range, damage, and special effects of the secondary weapon for the lock on attack.  As a lock on attack, any dice may be re-rolled after the attack roll.

 

I think its the first scenario you mentioned.  

Proton Torpedoes card reads: "Spend your target lock and discard this card to perform this attack. You may change 1 of your [focus] results to a [critical] result."

 

Rulebook page 11: Spending Target Lock Tokens: "If the attacker has a target lock on the defender, he may return his pair of assigned target lock tokens to the action token supply to choose any number of attack dice and reroll them once (see 'combat phase example' on pages 14-15)."

"The attacker may spend target lock tokens only when he is attacking a ship that his lock is targeting…" 

 

If you spend the target lock on torpedoes, you cannot then spend it on rerolls.  The opposite would be true as well.  Target locks may only be spent once.

 

You do get 4 dice regardless of range, and your opponent doesn't get the range agility bonus, and you get to count one [focus] result as a [crit].  I think its safe to say that this can easily be worth 4 points.  You have a small chance of one-shotting a tie at range 3 and a good chance of doing at least 1 or even 2 damage, along with a high chance of the hit that goes through being a critical.  Meanwhile the tie has almost no chance of scratching your paint at that range because he cant take secondary weapons and thus must attack with primary weapons at range 3 which means he gets 2 dice and you get 3.

 

On paper torpedoes look REALLY GOOD to me.  My advice is spend them on the first pass at max range if possible and with a [focus] action if possible (so it will take one turn to get the lock and a second turn to get the focus and fire). 



#12 Chaplin717

Chaplin717

    Member

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:43 AM

 Thank you, good stuff.  Why the focus though?  Doesn't the torpedo already make an eye icon into a critical?  Wouldn't you need two eye rolls to get use out of the focus (which seems unlikely)?



#13 Daveydavedave

Daveydavedave

    Member

  • Members
  • 291 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:48 AM

 The focus is just a way of hedging your bet.  Making extra sure that you get hits out of those 4 dice and that the crit the torps is likely to give you is above and beyond the misses rolled by the defender.  

What if you play a 4 point torpedoes and get all [focus] results?  Then you get one crit, and your opponent could have played an [evade] action or he might simply roll his 2 dice and get one miss to cancel your only hit.

I think that extra turn taken to get a [focus] is probably mathematically worth your time.



#14 Shanturin

Shanturin

    Member

  • Members
  • 61 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:06 AM

Daveydavedave said:

I think that extra turn taken to get a [focus] is probably mathematically worth your time.

 

 

Yet you may find yourself too close to target, or he may escape your firing arc. I'd say, if you acquired target lock and have an unobstructed shot at the enemy, go for it, especially if he has already spent his Focus/Evade token.

Or just get both Focus and target lock in the same turn. It's not that crazy, Vader alone can do it, or any other TIE Advanced backed up by any TIE with Squad Leader upgrade. Rebels are also capable of such feats with Vander/Greis combo I mentioned before, and, well, Squad Leader :P


May my blade be sharp. May I sculpt a new fate for my enemies.


#15 Hrathen

Hrathen

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,421 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:02 PM

 Proton Torpedoes work well in the opening phases of the game, when you are still far away.  You don't get an extra agility dice against secondary weapons at range 3, like has been said many times before.  Also Torpedoes have a really good chance of cassuing a crit.  Hopefully you can put something bad on an enemy early on the game and gimp them in future turns.

Concussion Missiles are awsome, mostly becasue theyr raise your attack dice from 2 to 4.  Low attack dice can plague Imperial Players.  Concussion Missiles will be my first upgrade on Vader next time I play.

Either way if a shot can put some hurt on an opponant, go along way to putting him down, that is probably going to be worth it even if you only use it once.

If you are playing against Rebels, they probably don't have a ton of ships.  If you are playing against Imperials, taking out Vader or whoever has swarm tactics will be a huge boon.


Putting an end to this distructive conflict and bringing order to the galaxy.

#16 TnT

TnT

    Member

  • Members
  • 35 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 01:44 PM

 My initial thought was the same - how can 4pts be worth it for a single shot weapon.  However, after a few games, I've found them fairly deadly.  So I ran the stats.  All the stats.  You can see the original on BGG here:  http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1420608/star-wars-x-wing-miniatures-game

Alternatively, you can find the numbers in this thread  http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/856660/all-the-stats-expected-damage

This analysis shows the expected damage you should average.  As you can see, a Proton Torpedo should expect to do 1.9 pts of damage to a Tie.  This drops to 1.23 if the Tie uses focus.  Or 1.02 if the Tie has evade.   Etc.  At long range a 3 dice attack would actually be up against 4 defence dice.  Thus we would only expect .499 points of damage.  I think the Proton Torpedo has a place.  

Expected Damage



#17 shmitty

shmitty

    Member

  • Members
  • 42 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:28 PM

 I've had the best luck with Torpedoes on Wedge and Horton Salm.  Both of their natural abilities work to further enhance the deadliness I the torpedoes.  Especially on Salm.  The firepower boost to the Y-Wing is awesome and the rerolls really ensure he shot isn't wasted. 






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS