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Lightsaber - Should It Have "Defensive" and "Deflection"?


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#1 selderane

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:39 AM

I'm sorry if this has already been asked.  I did a search of the forums and uncovered pages and pages of hits and I couldn't find my answer.

I love how deliciously broken the lightsaber is.  It should be.  Everything in the films tells us it kills or destroys whatever it touches.  So that's awesome and I'm glad to see this reality finally reflected in the RPG.

But I'm confused about "Defensive" and "Deflection" being attached to the item itself.  It seems to me these abilities, in just the case of the lightsaber, ought to be talents for a yet unseen Jedi specialization.  I can't think of a single reason they should belong to the lightsaber itself or how someone suddenly becomes better at blocking or deflecting blaster bolts by simply picking the device up - even unskilled.

So, yeah, can someone explain this to me?



#2 KommissarK

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:55 AM

I think this goes with how lightsabers are also supposed to use the lightsaber skill. If I was GM'ing, I would rule that the proper activation of those effects only comes when rolling the "actual" weapon skill, and not some other ability (e.g. using the melee skill does not allow the use of deflection).

Also, as a note, they don't kill everything. Vader clearly takes a hit from one to the shoulder in Ep V, and all we got were a lot of sparks. His armour isn't made of cortosis, so this is still quite impressive.



#3 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 04:00 AM

I kinda agree on Deflection, but Defensive I think should still be there as having a glowing blade of energy to put between yourself and an attacker tends to make most attackers nervous.

After all, the vibro-sword also gets Defensive (only a 1 vs. Lightsaber's 2), and there's really no history for vibro-blades being able to parry blaster fire, aside from maybe an episode of the Clone Wars cartoon, which takes some pretty big "artistic license" with Star Wars as it is.

Perhaps instead of removing them entirely, add a caveat that the wielder needs to be trained (i.e. have at least one skill rank) in Lightsaber to benefit from the weapon's defensive qualities?  After all, Luke was able to defend himself pretty well from that training remote after only a few minute's practice (in game terms, spending some of his accrued XP to pick up a rank in the Lightsaber skill).


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#4 awayputurwpn

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 05:01 AM

Requiring training would probably be good. 

I'm sure in the future (I.e. Force and Destiny) we'll see ways for Jedi to boost their defenses with the weapon, but for now I think it's alright to give it those qualities with whatever caveats the GM feels should be present in his game.



#5 Jegergryte

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 05:52 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

After all, the vibro-sword also gets Defensive (only a 1 vs. Lightsaber's 2), and there's really no history for vibro-blades being able to parry blaster fire, aside from maybe an episode of the Clone Wars cartoon, which takes some pretty big "artistic license" with Star Wars as it is.

You do have Kir Kanos blocking blaster bolts with his dual bladed vibrosword in Crimson Empire (can't remember if its I or II). He is an Imperial Royal Guard on the other hand (which means beard), but he is not force sensitive (unless the third installment makes him so - which I would find hard to believe and really dislike). And while not canon or anything (I think - being a comic books character is a mixed blessing it seems), I like the idea of having this opportunity there for my players (and the odd nemesis) even if they are not force sensitive, only really beardy and heroic; like samurai blocking arrows and ninjas blocking bullets


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#6 TheRedBaron

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:22 AM

It's important to remember that while blaster bolts are blindingly fast, they're not speed-of-light, and lightsaber blades have no weight. With fast enough reflexes, you could bat blaster bolts out of the air, even though you're no Jedi.



#7 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:28 AM

TheRedBaron said:

It's important to remember that while blaster bolts are blindingly fast, they're not speed-of-light, and lightsaber blades have no weight. With fast enough reflexes, you could bat blaster bolts out of the air, even though you're no Jedi.

A good point.

Something else to remember is that there's currently no means to reflect a blaster bolt, something we didn't really get to see until RotJ, albeit briefly and at a point when Luke was pretty much a Jedi Knight in all but name.


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#8 OB-1

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:45 PM

 

 I think Lightsabers should or could have Defensive and Deflection Qualities.

What I won't get is why

  • Defensive adds to Ranged Defense and why
  • one of these qualities is Passive and the other Active?

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#9 $hamrock

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:06 PM

Would the non-force assisted eye even be able to follow a blaster bolt?  That is akin to you and I following a bullet well enough to hit is out of the air with a cast iron frying pan.  Luke had to learn to do it blind, meaning the force actually did this.

The characters we currently have access to, don't have this type of force training/ability, so I can see why these issues would be left off.  It isn't like I can pick the thing up and make it work, it would be a much greater threat the the wielder then the shooter. 

Ever watched someone that doesn't know how to use nunchucks try to be Michelangelo?  doesn't often end well for the back of their skulls. 



#10 GM Chris

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:42 PM

$hamrock said:

Ever watched someone that doesn't know how to use nunchucks try to be Michelangelo?

What do nunchucks have to do with painting???

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#11 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 02:13 AM

GM Chris said:

$hamrock said:

 

Ever watched someone that doesn't know how to use nunchucks try to be Michelangelo?

 

 

What do nunchucks have to do with painting???

 

That was my first thought also.



#12 RonRamron

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:55 AM

If Dave Filoni or George Lucas were here they'd tell you that deflecting a blaster bolt is impossible unless your hand is guided by the force. 

…Or you're some form of machine with really good programming,  but even Grievous doesn't do it often.

I think those abilities should require a pre-req of Force Rating 2 or 3.



#13 Kallabecca

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:01 AM

RonRamron said:

If Dave Filoni or George Lucas were here they'd tell you that deflecting a blaster bolt is impossible unless your hand is guided by the force. 

…Or you're some form of machine with really good programming,  but even Grievous doesn't do it often.

I think those abilities should require a pre-req of Force Rating 2 or 3.

Grievous wasn't a droid with good programming. He was flesh and blood with cybernetic implants, like Vader would later be.



#14 RonRamron

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:13 AM

 So long as we're splitting hairs, grievous is a guy who wanted to be as fast a s a Jedi… Wasn't… So started systematically replacing his body parts with hardware and software and like someone who's addicted to cosmetic surgery, went way too far.

And yeah, I know the EU says differently. Nothing against it, but I'm going by film/tv canon here.



#15 Sorthlador

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 07:57 AM

 I've said it before and I'll say it again, if blasters are slow enough for you to bat them like a baseball…then why on the lake of alderaans green earth can't you train to jump out of the way of them? 

Why would it make sense for a weapon to be able to stop ranged attacks against you when you can't train (with the exp. of force skills and the side step talent) to dodge more blasters. 

 

Once again stating my point Defense needs work in the beta. Weapons, Armor, shield generators and the force shouldn't be the only way heroic characters can increase their passive defense (please note I said passive not activated via talents).


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#16 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:29 AM

Apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere, but I seem to recall that qualities that increase your Defence do not stack - the highest bonus is the one that applies. Does this mean that in a situation where both Defensive and Deflection would be applicable, only the higher of the two (the 2) apply, or would both?


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#17 $hamrock

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:30 AM

Sorthlador said:

Once again stating my point Defense needs work in the beta. Weapons, Armor, shield generators and the force shouldn't be the only way heroic characters can increase their passive defense (please note I said passive not activated via talents).

I fully agree with you on the first half of the post.  As to this half, I kinda like it the way it is… for starters there are limits to speed/awareness, for another, I adore the fact that no matter how powerful you get, storm troopers never become pudding snacks, they always remain a threat.  Very savage worlds-ish.  Just my .02, but I can see yours as well.

 



#18 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:31 AM

Shakespearian_Soldier said:

Apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere, but I seem to recall that qualities that increase your Defence do not stack - the highest bonus is the one that applies. Does this mean that in a situation where both Defensive and Deflection would be applicable, only the higher of the two (the 2) apply, or would both?

If you're referring to the section on Defense on page 134, I think that's more a case of separate types of defenses don't stack.  So if you're wearing armored clothing (providing Defense 1) and wielding a lightsaber (Deflection 1, which is effectively 1 rank of Ranged Defense), you don't wind up with a Ranged Defense of 2 against a blaster bolt.

However (and this might change in a later update), the wording on Defensive is that it gives you the quality's rating as an increase to your melee defense and ranged defense at the cost of a maneuver.  So in this case, I'd say that the ranged defense boost provided by using Defensive would stack with that of Deflection, making a lightsaber one heck of a useful means of protection against ranged attacks, as you'd have a Ranged Defense of 3 (with an added +1 if you've taken the Sixth Sense talent from Force-Sensitive Exile).

So yes, based on the current wording, they would stack.


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#19 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:43 PM

Thanks for the clarification. :)


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