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Becoming a Wizard Later


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#1 BJake

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:44 PM

 Has anyone done this? Is it permitted? One of my players is going from Thug to Apprentice Wizard (with my support and permission, story supported), the question is does she get all the basic petty stuff for free? (counterspell, channeling, cantrip, etc.) Does she get Spellcraft and Channeling for free like starting wizards do? (not trained, just you know,access, written down, usable, whatever) My current middle-ground plan is that the action cards are free but the skills must be purchased. 

Thoughts? Opinions? Facts?



#2 thePREdiger

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:20 PM

 the books state that you have to buy ALL stuff (that comes for free during the character generation, read Skills+Actions)

but in the end it comes down how you wanna handle it since you are the GM.

Just keep in mind that once you opened that door everyone will ask to tap into magic if you make it too cheap.

 

 

I thought about for a while and came up with this:

- the character spends at least 1 year in a college of magic

- you get CANTRIP and an Action of Choice for free - not any other spell

- you can purchase Channeling + Spellcraft together for 1 advance

 

I think it is a good strech between the core rules and still offers the character some value without making him/her overpowered.

You can use the in-game delay to run little side quests which take place during the time at the college (sorry to bring this up - think harry potter *dont hate me*)

 

 



#3 gruntl

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:30 PM

By the core rules you get nothing for free.

I would not play it like that at all. If it's motivated by story and a 1-2 year break fit into the overall campaign I would just allow the career change with complementary skills/actions to go through without paying more than for the actual career change. Story is more important than absolute game balance. Perhaps the other players get 1-3 xp for free just to simulate the stuff they were up to during the break (if they come up with some nice stories about it…).



#4 Matchstickman

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:35 PM

 They get none of the fun stuff wizards created at character gen get; they need to buy all the basic actions a wizard would start with and have to acquire the advanced skills before they can use them.

Page 118 of the Player's Guide

A character who becomes a wizard after character creation gains none of these benefits. He must acquire and learn these skills and actions the hard way.

They do get the order Talent for the appropriate Order for free however.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd!



#5 BJake

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:29 PM

 Awesome thank you for your responses! Facts, check. (I'm still waiting for my PLAYERS GUIDE)

I don't think I could make her spend that many xps on all that stuff- it'd never be worth it, I don't think magic is powerful enough. And why is it balanced for a starter wizard to get 600xps worth of free stuff and another character not to? Do you pay for Quickcasting? She wouldn't even have the space in her career progression to pick up all those actions, let alone any rank 1 spells. Something missing here. A Wizard's App who becomes a Thug is 600xps ahead of a Thug who becomes a wizard's app. Anyway- I'll houserule something fair. Has anyone actually had a player do this?

Another question in the same vein… having not finalized the move to Wizard's App, my player was also considering Witch. Does a starting Witch get petty magic, counterspell, all that stuff? I know they don't get the SKILL, so they can't channel until they become Warlocks and get the skill. But if they get none of those wizard freebies, do they get permission to buy them later? Otherwise, how would a Warlock ever channel?

Sorry I've got so many questions, but I really want to understand these two careers and the ramifications of moving into them. If you've got facts- great, opinions and musings also welcome.



#6 dvang

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:37 AM

It isn't intended to be fair. The simple fact is that a starting wizard is assumed to have spent time in the college being taught by teachers how to channel, and a few basic spells. They are assumed to have already spent the time and effort, in their backstory.

"During game" a PC that switches will need to buy them because they have to spend the effort and energy. They don't magically "just know" stuff simply because they have switched a career.  Of course, as mentioned above, if your story is giving a several-year time-lapse, where the PC gains training in spellcasting, then it would be a reasonable option to give either give them free actions/spell, or give them XP to spend.

Of course, keep in mind that to be fair to other PCs, you should realistically compensate them for their experience during that time frame, if you are giving the new wizard PC free stuff.

 

I think part of this is to encourage players to start as wizards and stay a wizard, rather than entering or leaving the career willy-nilly.  "Realistically", it would be difficult for a PC to switch to a wizard career in the middle of a campaign. Really, a PC who shows magical talent is either whisked away to the colleges, and must spend a few years there training to control their ability, or else they are a "witch".

Without a "time-lapse" to accommodate time in the Colleges of Magic, as a GM I personally wouldn't allow a PC to switch to a wizard career.  If they want to be a spellcaster after their first career, they need to go witch.

I suppose, after some thought, for me the only conceivable way a PC might be able to switch to a wizard mid-campaign, is if there was another college wizard present in the party (whether PC or NPC), of a decent rank, to train the PC.  Still, the PC would need to learn their skills/actions/spells and wouldn't get them for free.

Regarding witches:

I'll need to relook at the witch/warlock careers to confirm. I believe that they do get the Petty spells for free, if they start as a Witch. They do NOT start with Channel Power action.  All that means is that they must rely on equilibrium to regain Power.  They don't have access to Channel Power until they reach Warlock. Of note, Witches can purchase spells from ANY of the Colleges, as well as Dark magic spells (I believe), with their XP.



#7 k7e9

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:20 AM

Well, the player doesn't need to buy all basic spell actions when becoming a wizard apprentice. You do not have to have counterspell, magic dart or even channel power (allthough I'd really suggest picking up the latter). After acquiring spellcraft and a spell the player could technically cast spells using the power granted via the equilibrium rules and relevant spell actions, that just 2XP spent. With 4XP the character could have acquired spellcraft, channeling, channel power and a chosen (rank 1) spell from whatever order of magic the player moved into. That's not an especially big investment. Skill training and more spells can come later on, and the basic spell actions can be picked up whenever the player wants to, if ever. Quick casting, if I remember correctly is just a reference card and any wizard can quick cast if they want to (not 100% sure about this though).

In reality wizards doesn't start that far ahead, most basic spell actions aren't especially good or useful, they simply enable the wizard player to do some damage in combat. The damage the wizard does via the basic actions could easily could be lower than what the thug can do via the basic actions melee strike or ranged shot). The basic spell actions are almost only replacements for the basic actions that everyone gets for free.

I'd probably not give the player anything for free as it's their choice to move into a wizard career or not. But a fair houserule, if I'd make one would be to give the player channel power and/or allow them to acquire channeling for free as the player is attuned to the winds of magic (which would be the reason why they were recruited into the college of magic in the first place). Spellcraft is something that has to be learned, so I would not give the player that for free, same goes for all spells as well, including counterspell and other basic spell actions. They would have to be learned by spending XP.

Another houserule you could make use of instead, which I actually used in a previous game, is that wizards doesn't acquire spellcraft or channeling for free at character creation. They got all the basic spell actions though, so they were more similar to priests in their character creation rules. That could be used to "balance" things between the thug and the wizard.

Lastly, you must consider how the other players might feel about you handing a player a free action card and/or giving them free skills though, as that might not be very popular with the other players. Some players might be fine with it while others might think it unfair, but you know your group best.



#8 BJake

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 05:22 PM

 Thanks again for all your advice and thoughts. It still stands that one couldn't even buy all the free actions and skills with the limits imposed by the advancement scheme. I don't think any thought was put into characters becoming wizards later (or elves becoming wizards ever). So I'll probably give one or two for free and/or tweak the advancement rules, or she'd have to change careers before learning all the originally free actions. (maybe none of the original freebies count as advances?)

I'm not concerned with balance or keeping my players happy, I'm an experienced GM and I'm got a good handle on that stuff. I don't think wizards are all that powerful and if I start to see her become over-powered I can reign her in by requiring she find a teacher in order to learn more. I just want to understand what the system expects before breaking the rules. (Personal Motto #36- Learn the Rules, THEN Break Them.)

Anyway- witches? I've got the Witches Song, but it just doesn't tell you what a witch starts with. I could assume it's nothing, but then that causes a number of problems. e.g. Can they buy them later? If so, can them get Cantrip, if so what are witchy Cantrips? If not, are they expected to purchase channel action when they get to warlock, but they're not allowed to buy the other freebies? No counterspell? Do they get quickcasting?

So many rules that need serious clarifications in this edition! I feel like it's a half-baked apple pie- not finished but still pretty awesome.



#9 ozean

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:15 AM

 I have granted a novice player, who wanted to start with a regular career before entering the complicated wizard careers, the ability to get basic training in magical sight during character creation. She had to pay one regular skill plus one specialization for this (instead of 2 skill advances), to account for it being out of the regular rules. She now has visions of the winds from time to time and sometimes unconsciously walks along ley lines into the woods. (She is becoming a Jade Wizard, of course). She is also starting to use the Magic Sight skill now and then and soon I'll have her accidentally cast a Jade Magic spell or a Jade wind based cantrip in dire situations (when she does a very good roll). This is all intended to slowly build up the way to the Jade College. Of course it might also happen that she gets into trouble for being a witch or through accruing corruption for untrained magic use…

Once she is through with her starting career (Apothecary) she'll finally get whisked away to the Jade College by a benevolent Jade Wizard who has tried to keep an eye on her for a while already after hearing rumors about her. She'll arrange her getting proper training and all. I guess at the career transition to Jade Wizard I'll give free access to the Cantrip action, but everything else has to be acquired as stated in the Rules As Written.



#10 colonelclick

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 11:52 AM

 I had a player taking apprentice as his second career. I had already planned for a serious elapse of time between adventures.

I gave him the option of buying the things he wanted at the usual cost, or adding 3xp to the normal transition cost in exchange for all 6 apprentice items (spellcraft, channeling, channel power, counter spell, cantrip, magic missile). I decided to make it an (optional) cost to the transition, so as not to fill up his advance slots with acquiring all the basic skills a wizard should have.



#11 Emirikol

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:48 AM

I house ruled they get channeling for free, but nothing else.  I don't feel it breaks my game if someone wants to join an order later.  Nobody's taken it up yet though.  Our Mystic looked at it, but will probably just switch characters entirely rather than mess around with trying to figure out how the whole system works.

 

jh



#12 dvang

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:00 PM

Emirikol said:

I house ruled they get channeling for free, but nothing else.  I don't feel it breaks my game if someone wants to join an order later.  Nobody's taken it up yet though.  Our Mystic looked at it, but will probably just switch characters entirely rather than mess around with trying to figure out how the whole system works.

 

jh

Suggest to your mystic to go to the Witch career path.  My wife had a character that did that, and it worked great. It fit in well with a "non-sanctioned" spellcaster.  Witches get a lot of flexibility, being able to select spells from all Orders. Add in that there is no need to worry or figure out how the colleges of magic "system" works.



#13 Emirikol

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:25 AM

The player just switched characters to warlock (ex-witch) wood elf (house rule), and has been interesting so far as he's always trying to take the halfling and the little girl NPC in the party out and eat them in the woods ;)

 

jh






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