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#1 countrugen

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:48 PM

 Kind of off-topic as it doesn't pertain to the beta, but whateva…

In the rebellion era, when the Empire was large-and-in-charge and the only Jedi to be found were Obi-Wan and Yoda, did the average citizen know that Force users had special "powers"? Remember the scene in "A New Hope" when the military officer (before being force choked) said to Vader "you are the last of that sad religion." To me, this implies that knowledge of the Force and Force Users had completely decayed in the span of 18 years or so and fallen out of public knowledge. Was the Force, by that point, something like the way that a religion like Deism (big in colonial America, but very little adherents now) is now? Any and all information is very welcomed!
 
Thanks!



#2 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:21 PM

countrugen said:

 Kind of off-topic as it doesn't pertain to the beta, but whateva…

 

In the rebellion era, when the Empire was large-and-in-charge and the only Jedi to be found were Obi-Wan and Yoda, did the average citizen know that Force users had special "powers"? Remember the scene in "A New Hope" when the military officer (before being force choked) said to Vader "you are the last of that sad religion." To me, this implies that knowledge of the Force and Force Users had completely decayed in the span of 18 years or so and fallen out of public knowledge. Was the Force, by that point, something like the way that a religion like Deism (big in colonial America, but very little adherents now) is now? Any and all information is very welcomed!
 
Thanks!

 

I don't think it entirely fell out of common knowledge, but was rather treated as being a "silly superstition" and "smoke and mirrors" by the Imperial populace, much like someone in our world claiming to be able to cast spells and work true magic would be treated (at best) with a significant amount of skepticism.

Han's generation probably grew up with the adults treating Jedi and the Force in much the same way stories about elves and wizards are treated today; an amusing fantasy perhaps, but ultimately just a fantasy.

Motti was simply just a smug prick that he honestly believed the Force was a load of nonsense until Lord Vader kindly provided him with a practical demonstration.


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#3 Cyril

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:59 PM

Donovan Morningfire said:

countrugen said:

 

 Kind of off-topic as it doesn't pertain to the beta, but whateva…

 

In the rebellion era, when the Empire was large-and-in-charge and the only Jedi to be found were Obi-Wan and Yoda, did the average citizen know that Force users had special "powers"? Remember the scene in "A New Hope" when the military officer (before being force choked) said to Vader "you are the last of that sad religion." To me, this implies that knowledge of the Force and Force Users had completely decayed in the span of 18 years or so and fallen out of public knowledge. Was the Force, by that point, something like the way that a religion like Deism (big in colonial America, but very little adherents now) is now? Any and all information is very welcomed!
 
Thanks!

 

 

 

I don't think it entirely fell out of common knowledge, but was rather treated as being a "silly superstition" and "smoke and mirrors" by the Imperial populace, much like someone in our world claiming to be able to cast spells and work true magic would be treated (at best) with a significant amount of skepticism.

Han's generation probably grew up with the adults treating Jedi and the Force in much the same way stories about elves and wizards are treated today; an amusing fantasy perhaps, but ultimately just a fantasy.

Motti was simply just a smug prick that he honestly believed the Force was a load of nonsense until Lord Vader kindly provided him with a practical demonstration.

You also have to think about it in the terms of the Imperial propaganda machine. Palpatine didn't need anyone rising up to challenge him, so of course he's going to do his damnedest to make sure that the Force and it's practitioners are discredited as much as possible. If you've constantly had stories of the Jedi being devoted to "an ancient religion" and "inept sorcerers" you're going to be much less likely to rally behind one should one try to organize unless you've seen one in action. But odds are you're going to turn one over to the Empire should one ever be stupid enough to reveal himself.



#4 Kallabecca

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 10:06 AM

And even before the prequels their numbers had been declining. During the Old Republic, the Jedi needed at least one whole planet to themselves for training and such because they were that numerous. By the time of the Clone Wars they appear to have declined in numbers to the point where just the Jedi Temple on Coruscant can hold their entire Order. So, the average person in the Republic wouldn't have any real contact, just stories of Jedi… Great thing to work from and turn against the Jedi :)

This is based off material from Dark Horse Comics (Tales of the Jedi)…



#5 selderane

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:53 AM

Kallabecca said:

By the time of the Clone Wars they appear to have declined in numbers to the point where just the Jedi Temple on Coruscant can hold their entire Order.

I don't know if A implies B.  There are very good  reasons why the headquarters of the Jedi Order would be located near the seat of galactic power - both for the Jedi and the Republic.


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#6 awayputurwpn

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 04:55 AM

Kallabecca said:

By the time of the Clone Wars they appear to have declined in numbers to the point where just the Jedi Temple on Coruscant can hold their entire Order. 

selderane said:


I don't know if A implies B. There are very good reasons why the headquarters of the Jedi Order would be located near the seat of galactic power - both for the Jedi and the Republic.

Yes, there were reasons the main Jedi Temple was near the seat of power. But Kallabecca was referring to the fact that they are so small (numbering a few thousand) around the Clone Wars that they can all be based out of the Jedi Temple, whereas in years (and centuries and millennia) past, they numbered several hundred thousand strong and wouldn't all fit into the Jedi Temple.

 



#7 Lynata

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:50 AM

On the topic of the Jedi Order's size, this is what I found in the "Jedi Path" - like its sister-product, the "Book of Sith", it's an in-character sourcebook and an excellent read especially for people interested in roleplaying a character who could utilise this knowledge:

"The Jedi are more than 10,000 strong. Governance of the Order falls to the four Councils, one for each spire crowning our Temple's corners. The Council of First Knowledge guards our Archive and generously distributes its insights to our youngest Initiates. The Council of Reconciliation engages in peaceful diplomacy to end conflicts. The Council of Reassignment oversees the Jedi Service Corps, managing the careers of those who do not pass their Trials to become Padawans or Knights. The High Council is the final authority on all matters of the Order. It is made up of our bravest champions and wisest minds. Under the guidance of the High Council, the traditions of the Jedi Order will endure for thousands of generations. The High Council Tower does not set itself higher than the towers of First Knowledge, Reconciliation and Reassignment. All four lie in the shadow of the Tranquility Spire."

There were also Praxeum ships, but I am not aware of their number around the Clone Wars.

 

Regarding the original topic for knowledge of the Jedi powers, I think this has already been answered well as having suffered under many decades of Imperial propaganda and no-one being around to prove otherwise. From what I've read, the highest Imperial officials were aware that the Emperor and Vader had "special powers", but not that they were Sith. Naturally, this limited knowledge means little for the average citizen. I think Han's comment regarding "hokey religions" exemplifies this best. :)

Something to keep in mind might be that Jedi weren't the only Force users around, even (or especially) during the Rebellion era. Decline of Jedi knowledge just led to many Force-sensitives never being "discovered" and remaining ignorant of their own abilities which they would often attribute to skill or luck. Not to mention the many "shamans" and "witches" of various cultures that commonly lacked the ability to get offworld. Finally, the Empire even recruited its own limited number of Dark Side Acolytes out of reconditioned Jedi or Force-sensitives newly discovered by the Inquisitorius, they just weren't trained much (with exception of the Emperor's Hands) but kept on a basic soldier-like level. I vaguely recall members of the Royal Guard being attributed basic Force-sensitivity, for example.

The previous RPGs always discussed this when talking about the Force in this era, so maybe EotE will do likewise.


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#8 GM Chris

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:11 AM

Lynata said:

… this is what I found in the "Jedi Path" …

This is an amazing resource.  I love it.

But, in terms of canon, it was written a LOOOOONG time before the Clone Wars.  A book so old, that Yoda made notes in it when he owned it as a padawan.  Just sayin'.  ;-)  By the time of the Clone Wars… I think the Jedi Order was drastically reduced in size.


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#9 Lynata

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:24 PM

GM Chris said:

This is an amazing resource.  I love it.

But, in terms of canon, it was written a LOOOOONG time before the Clone Wars.  A book so old, that Yoda made notes in it when he owned it as a padawan.  Just sayin'.  ;-)  By the time of the Clone Wars… I think the Jedi Order was drastically reduced in size.

Well, according to the intro text, the book is dated 115 BBY, which would mean less than 100 years before the Clone Wars. I don't think that the Order would change that much just within a couple decades. Also, when Yoda had it he was no Padawan - he was already a Master, he just got it to review its contents for potential revisions in future editions. (and he made no note regarding the numbers ;) )

Furthermore, I think an important point is that by whatever time the text was written, the entire Order was already organised around the Temple on Coruscant. Apparently it can simply support a much larger number of Jedi than what was assumed.

Of course, 10.000 or 1.000 is not that much of a difference considering the size of the galaxy, anyways …

 

But yeah, the Jedi Path as well as the Book of Sith are great resources for people who plan to roleplay a Force-user! By now, you can also get them "separately", that is not as part of the uber-expensive collector's deal where they come with a whole bag of cool (but ultimately useless if you just want to read) gadgets.


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