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Simple Tollbooth question


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#1 Paul Grogan

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:04 PM

Runner hits Tollbooth and has 2 credits.  Do they pay them at all?  I always assumed so, but the other player queried it and I couldnt find anything in the rules.

Is there a definition of "if able"



#2 Thee Forsaken One

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:16 PM

I can't think of any game where 'if able' didn't mean that they paid as much as they could to whatever cost was being demanded but there was no penalty for being able to meet all of it.

I guess really tollbooth should bounce people who don't pay the toll but that would perhaps be a bit powerful so the intention, as I see it, is to hit runners for up to 3 Credits per access.

Someone actually queried this? Unless they were worried not being able to pay the full cost incurred some kind of penalty, the player asking strikes me as attempting a ridiculous rule bending exercise to get out of losing their Credits.



#3 DefconX

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:15 PM

Thee Forsaken One said:

I can't think of any game where 'if able' didn't mean that they paid as much as they could to whatever cost was being demanded but there was no penalty for being able to meet all of it.

I guess really tollbooth should bounce people who don't pay the toll but that would perhaps be a bit powerful so the intention, as I see it, is to hit runners for up to 3 Credits per access.

Someone actually queried this? Unless they were worried not being able to pay the full cost incurred some kind of penalty, the player asking strikes me as attempting a ridiculous rule bending exercise to get out of losing their Credits.

In this case, I think it could be argued that because they used the word "pays" instead of "loses" that it's an all or nothing kind of situation.

You either pay out the 3 credits and continue onto the subroutines of Tollbooth, or you can't pay the 3 credits, you lose no credits and the run ends immediately.



#4 hollis

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:49 PM

Tollbooth reads:

When the Runner encounters Tollbooth, he or she must pay 3 [Credits], if able. If the Runner cannot pay 3 [Credits], end the run.
[Subroutine] End the run.

If you take the literal English meaning here, and a runner has 0-2 credits, the run will end without losing anything. It's like trying to get onto the bus when you don't have enough change. The bus driver doesn't steal what you have, punch you in the nose, and then kick you out. He just closes the door on you, and you keep your pennies and dimes.

 

Also compare this to the wording of account siphon, which says:

 

Make a run on HQ. If successful, instead of accessing cards you may force the Corp to lose up to 5 [Credits], then you gain 2 [Credits] for each credit lost and take 2 tags.

Very clearly, the corp loses UP TO 5 credits. There is not UP TO 3 credits as part of tollbooth. It's 3, or nothing.



#5 Paul Grogan

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:07 PM

hollis said:

It's like trying to get onto the bus when you don't have enough change. The bus driver doesn't steal what you have, punch you in the nose, and then kick you out. He just closes the door on you, and you keep your pennies and dimes.

You've lived in the UK then? ;)



#6 Thee Forsaken One

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 12:41 AM

hollis said:

Tollbooth reads:

When the Runner encounters Tollbooth, he or she must pay 3 [Credits], if able. If the Runner cannot pay 3 [Credits], end the run.
[Subroutine] End the run.

If you take the literal English meaning here, and a runner has 0-2 credits, the run will end without losing anything. It's like trying to get onto the bus when you don't have enough change. The bus driver doesn't steal what you have, punch you in the nose, and then kick you out. He just closes the door on you, and you keep your pennies and dimes.

Now that you've posted the full text I agree with you. I couldn't remember if Tollbooth included a part about not being able to pay so I was going off the wording Paul posted.



#7 Treguard

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 01:04 AM

Paul Grogan said:

hollis said:

It's like trying to get onto the bus when you don't have enough change. The bus driver doesn't steal what you have, punch you in the nose, and then kick you out. He just closes the door on you, and you keep your pennies and dimes.

 

You've lived in the UK then? ;)

Bloody buses! They charge enough these days to warrant paying with a note, only to find that they don't carry change so you're SOL..

.. But I digress. My interpetation is it's either 3 creds or end the run, making it an excellent starter ICE for a server. After hacking through so much ICE, the thought of a Runner getting dumped by such a simple ICE simply because they ran out of creds is delicious- savour it!



#8 Cervantes3773

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:29 AM

Forgive me if this question is based on an incorrect premise (my cards aren't in front of me), but certain cards give the runner renewable credits to spend on runs, but they don't actually give the runner any credits.

If a runner spends those credits on something like Tollbooth, does the corp still get them, and just takes them from the bank?

 

Thanks!



#9 Treguard

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:46 AM

Yeah, pretty much. If you were running under a Stimhack, say, you'd have your separate pool of 9 credits which you would sensibly burn through before using your actual credits. You could pay the tollbooth using any additional "running" bits.



#10 DefconX

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:51 AM

Cervantes3773 said:

 

Forgive me if this question is based on an incorrect premise (my cards aren't in front of me), but certain cards give the runner renewable credits to spend on runs, but they don't actually give the runner any credits.

If a runner spends those credits on something like Tollbooth, does the corp still get them, and just takes them from the bank?

Thanks!

 

 

Yes, the Corp. would get to keep them.

For example, Stimhack says that at the end of the run you return any credits not spent to the bank. Whether they were given to the Corp. to pay for things like the toll, or used for paying other costs doesn't really matter, all of those spent credits would be considered spent and therefore not returned at the end of the run.

At the moment there aren't any renewable credit sources that could be used to pay for Tollbooth (their credits can only be used for installing icebreakers/viruses, using icebreakers or removing tags, depending on the card) but if a card that had renewable credits that could be used to pay for ice effects ever existed, you could definitely use it.



#11 DefconX

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:01 AM

Bad Publicity…That's a source of temporary credits that could be used for Tollbooth's ability.

Totally forgot about it…



#12 mdc273

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:24 AM

Where does this concept that the Corp gets the credits from Toll Booth come from? It in no way states that. It doesn't actually function like a Toll Booth, LoL.

Also, precedent in other FFG games would be that because it specifies 3 credits if able, the runner needs to have 3 credits or they are unable and the run is ended.



#13 DefconX

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:42 AM

mdc273 said:

Where does this concept that the Corp gets the credits from Toll Booth come from? It in no way states that. It doesn't actually function like a Toll Booth, LoL.

Also, precedent in other FFG games would be that because it specifies 3 credits if able, the runner needs to have 3 credits or they are unable and the run is ended.

*head desk* Yup…that's totally right. I got caught up in answering the question and wasn't thinking. Siigh.

Thinking about it further, even if there was a Corp card that acted that way, it would likely be worded more like the Criminal's Account Siphon. i.e. The Runner loses/pays credits, and the Corp gains some. No direct transfer.



#14 jhaelen

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:47 AM

Thee Forsaken One said:

 

I can't think of any game where 'if able' didn't mean that they paid as much as they could to whatever cost was being demanded but there was no penalty for being able to meet all of it.

 

Well, I can think of one: It's the Call of Cthulhu LCG. Here's the passage from the current CoC FAQ giving an example of how 'if able' statements work:

 

For example: The event Byakhee Attack
(Core Set F95) reads: “Action: Each
opponent chooses and discards 2 cards
from his hand, if able.” If an opponent
has exactly 1 card in his hand, he is not
affected by Byakhee Attack because he
cannot choose 2 cards to discard.

In other words, it's precisely _because_ the card text includes the template words 'if able' that the targeted opponents don't have to discard anything if they cannot discard two cards. If 'if able' was missing from the text, players with only a single card _would_ have to discard it to attempt to fulfill as much of the effect as possible.

I'd also like to mention that I think the definition of 'if able' is counter-intuitive and confusing. As it happens 'if able' is often either used incorrectly on CoC cards or it's redundant. 'Toll Booth' seems to be an example of the latter.






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