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#1 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:46 AM

Havent played Dark Heresy in ages, would only be buying the book to read most likely. Is it a good read?



#2 Gregorius21778

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:27 AM

Hard to tell. I never bought RPG rules books because they are "good reading". Especially in regard to the 40K product lines I find it sometimes a very dull read for all these "grimdark" adjectives (some of them repeated over and over again in the same book) and for all the "dependts on" positoins that need to be woven into the text since the authors do not want to lay rules for ALL OF CALIXIS (they might need ONE planet who differs later) and cannot detail ALL OF CALIXIS as well.

If you it is "good reading" to you if it gives you more piece of the world and thereby feeds your imagination, I would say "have it".
In comparison, I would says that "Creatures Anathema" was a much better read due to all the "Letters & Notes" inside. You will only find the odd "filler fluff text" in this (like in the other products).

I hope this was somewhat helpful



#3 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:38 PM

That sounded more like someone with an axe to grind over the 40K RPG line than a commentary on The Lathe Worlds… but anyway, moving on…

 


Peacekeeper – Obviously anything I say is tinged with a healthy dose of bias given the work I did on the book, but as a general fan of the Adeptus Mechanicus I can say that if you like the Priests of Mars and their strange ways, then this book is a must. Yes, the has fewer options for non-Tech-Priests, but given the organisation we’re dealing with that shouldn’t be something that surprises anyone. The in-depth look at the AdMech’s holdings within Calixis is something we’ve only scratched the surface of in previous book, and it delves into topics only hinted at in side-bars (like the Lords Dragon). So if you like Dark Heresy, it’s setting, and the AdMech, then you should like this book.

BYE



#4 Saldre

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:34 PM

I am going to agree with H.B.M.C- though if you're just looking for Good reading, Disciples of the Dark Gods, Creature's Anathema and Radicals Handbook are all great choices which I'd go for before Lathe Worlds. 



#5 Lucifer216

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:19 PM

Well….

It depends. If you are a relative newcomer to 40K, then you will get a lot more of it than a grizzled veteran. Most of the background feels like a slightly reworked version of what's come before and while the stuff on the Lathe Worlds proper is solid, I think the book as a whole is vastly let down by the fact that it fails to discuss the culture of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Effectively, the feel of the whole book is pre-Titanicus/Mechanicum/Priests of Mars, with no real references to the Noosphere (think the internet hybridised with augmented reality). 

I think this is a real pity as any supplement for a roleplaying game on a particular should go deeper into the typical mindsets of its members than novels that have been out there for several years.

I appreciate that this could be a general criticism of the FFG 40K gamelines, which effectively repackage existing 40K background and only expand it narrowly within the context of the setting of each line and provide RPG rules, but it did feel a lot more glaring to me with this supplement, than with the others, particularly as the Adeptus Mechanicus so rarely get put under the spotlight. There is also little discussion of scrap-code or systems to add depth to hacking attempts.

The book definitely works in providing players and GMs with more detail about the setting, but comes short when it comes to giving them ideas about how to roleplay Adeptus Mechanicus characters in a distinctive fashion.

For example, in Titanicus, there is the following exchange: 

"Macaroth will be pissed off with us, won't he?"

Crusius halted and looked down at his famulous. "Of course he will. Additional: where did you learn a phrase like that?"

Sonne shrugged. "I… I don't know."

"Pissed Off. That's very earthly. Very Imperial. What's the rule?"

Sonne sighed. "We of the Mechanicus prefer cant and system code imagery to biological ones."

"So?"

"Macaroth will be very error shunt abort with us."

"Better."

It wouldn't have taken much effort for the authors to have had a quick flick through the existing Black Library novels dealing with the Mechanicus and try to provide general rules of thumb, such as the above to help players and GMs give some depth to their roleplaying experiences. It's not without this sort of thing doesn't have precedent in roleplaying games. Most White Wolf game lines have a lexicon at the front with terms and slang that characters regularly use, while the Buffy: The Vampire Slayer game line has an entire section devoted to Buffy-speak.

On the other hand, the sections dealing with the Lathes are done very well, with memorable and well thought out factions and alternative career ranks. 

One minor quibble I have is that at times the book feels oddly structured, with certain sections feeling like they should have been amalgamated. For example, on p.21 we have sects of the Calixian Mechanicus and then on p.78, we have Power Factions and Sects (of the Lathe Worlds). 

 



#6 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:56 AM

The Chaos God of Double Post got to me! AHHH!

 



#7 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:57 AM

Lucifer216 said:

It wouldn't have taken much effort for the authors to have had a quick flick through the existing Black Library novels dealing with the Mechanicus and try to provide general rules of thumb, such as the above to help players and GMs give some depth to their roleplaying experiences.


Forgive me for saying this, but that example seems to be a relatively minor and unimportant one. We know the Mechanicus has a different culture to the Imperium at large, why be so specific about phrases. That and isn't that basically what the GM is there to do, whereas the books are here to expand the setting (Calixis, in this instance). The Lathe Worlds isn't an Adeptus Mechanicus source book. It's an Adeptus Mechanicus within the Calixis Sector source book. Up until this point the Calixis Mechanicus has been covered (in the slimmest definition of that word) in very small amounts. Look at The Inquisitor's Handbook, and the brief side-bars we get for some AdMech fluff. This is a whole book about expanding that fluff - missing phrasings or colloquialisms from some Black Library books isn't really useful (and really not all that relevant).

BYE



#8 Dok Martin

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:51 AM

Lucifer216 said:

The book definitely works in providing players and GMs with more detail about the setting, but comes short when it comes to giving them ideas about how to roleplay Adeptus Mechanicus characters in a distinctive fashion.

For example, in Titanicus, there is the following exchange: 

"Macaroth will be pissed off with us, won't he?"

Crusius halted and looked down at his famulous. "Of course he will. Additional: where did you learn a phrase like that?"

Sonne shrugged. "I… I don't know."

"Pissed Off. That's very earthly. Very Imperial. What's the rule?"

Sonne sighed. "We of the Mechanicus prefer cant and system code imagery to biological ones."

"So?"

"Macaroth will be very error shunt abort with us."

"Better."

It wouldn't have taken much effort for the authors to have had a quick flick through the existing Black Library novels dealing with the Mechanicus and try to provide general rules of thumb, such as the above to help players and GMs give some depth to their roleplaying experiences. It's not without this sort of thing doesn't have precedent in roleplaying games. Most White Wolf game lines have a lexicon at the front with terms and slang that characters regularly use, while the Buffy: The Vampire Slayer game line has an entire section devoted to Buffy-speak.

My point exactly!



#9 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 09:32 AM

I am far from a newcomer ot 40K or Dark Heresy, I just stopped with FFGs books after Black Crusade and havent been able to play Dark Heresy in a long time so I havent bought any of the books. Been thinking about picking up Lathe Worlds, Soul Reaver and Tome of Lies (I think that is what it is called) from the various game lines but that would be about a $65 investment if I went PDF. Nearly $100 if I get hard copies which is my preference.

If I was running Dark Heresy I would have no qualms about it, but I am not anymore. So its a tough call.

So here we go: New stats for crittersencounters?

New backgrounds/origins?

New alternate career rank packages?

New rules?

New fluff?

I am sure there is new gear and I really am not interested in that.



#10 Gregorius21778

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:11 PM

Peacekeeper_b said:

So here we go: New stats for crittersencounters?

New backgrounds/origins?

New alternate career rank packages?

New rules?

New fluff?

I am sure there is new gear and I really am not interested in that.



Hi Peacekeeper,

the armoury takes up eleven pages out of a total of 141. The adventure (which I won´t count as "good read") takes up another 16 pages.

The Rest is Mechanicus, Careers and Packages, and about 48 pages devouted to the Lathes and different mechanicus worlds. They do not come with a complete gazeteer but you get the picture. Of course, the Lathes take up the main part of the secition (as it is right and proper according to the title).

For details on the careers, please the existing Lathe-Topics. As far as I remember the book got vivisected quiet good.



#11 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:56 PM

Bought it. Wasnt impressed.

Actually have only manmaged to make it 20 or so pages into the book and find it pretty dull. Sorry. Everytime I try to read it I find more interesting things to do, like watch house hunters with my wife.

I dont know, perhaps for me the magic of Dark Heresy is just gone. I havent had a sit down and read the entire book in one sitting encounter since the Radicals Handbook. As much as I liked Blood of Martyrs and Book of Judgement, I just couldnt get into this one.

I think between Death Watch and Black Crusade the 40K RPG has just been killed for me.

I am glad the game is doing well and people still seem to love it, but it seems for me the writers and creators are doing things in ways I just dont find interesting or like.

 



#12 Lightbringer

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:23 AM

 It is possible to get bored of a game line. Its happened to me in the past. Personally I'm not there yet with Dark Heresy, as you seem to be, PKB, but I understand where you're coming from. I liked Lathe Worlds a lot, myself. 

Perhaps it's the "buying RPG books as light reading" that's the issue? I'm in the same boat as you, since the birth of my son I've had no time to play any 40k games, so I end up buying them and reading them for entertainment purposes only. This means that one gets less out of the "crunch" in the books than one used to.

It's probably no coincidence that the FFG books I've enjoyed most over the last year or so were the "fluff" heavy DW sourcebooks about the Jericho Reach. If you're stuck reading for entertainment, you don't really want adventures, or huge amounts of crunch. You want background and setting material. It's another reason why I'd like to see a Calixis Sector sourcebook. I used to love the old oWoD city sourcebooks. It would be nice to see a 40k Calixis equivalent…

 



#13 breez

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:28 PM

I always had difficulty with the whole 'tech-priest' and 'tech heresy' aspect in Dark heresy. So for me, I got a lot of value from the book.



#14 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:25 AM

Out of interest Peacekeeper, what were you expecting from the book?

BYE



#15 LC1984

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:31 AM

Good to see you HBMC.

I have several questions regarding "The Lathe Worlds". Maybe you can answer some.

1.  The new skill "Logis Prophesying", when would you enable the +20 rank, and what should the xp cost be for +10 and +20?

2. Nearly the same question concering "Diplomacy" and its +20 rank.

3. Integrated weapons, what appearance can these weapons have? Could they be fully integrated into a cybernetic? Can every weapon be integrated (like heavy)? And if yes, wouldn't the heavy Las-Weapons be a little bit ridiculous ;) ? My GM is a littttttttttle bit worried about it (we came to the solution to just double the clip size)

4. NSC Stats for the Myrmidons. What use has the skill "Parry"? I know the skill from the newer systems (like BC), but it was never implemented into DH? Further "Drive "Surface", is it a skill or the talent "Talented"? And for what vehicles is it used, as the core only mentions Ground, Hover, Walker? The same for Navigate "Surface", skill or talent?

And can you give furhter information regarding the "Cataphract Armour", that the Myrmidons use, another kind of terminator suit? Same question goes for Nuada Pattern Aurora Cannon and Tatanis Siege Battery. Are these just heavy weapons or weapon plattforms or something else? And regarding the Aurora Cannon, is it a weapon based on laser technology?

5. What is your advise  for Luminen Surge and Luminen Flare, if Luminen Blast and Luminen Shock are already updated into the newer versions from OW?

Thanks in advance for your patience and answers.

 



#16 Adeptus-B

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:05 PM

Peacekeeper_b said:

I am glad the game is doing well and people still seem to love it, but it seems for me the writers and creators are doing things in ways I just dont find interesting or like.

 

Personal taste is one thing, and there is no 'right' or 'wrong' there; you either like it or you don't. But I have been disappointed with the move away from 'game balance' in the recent DH books. Some might call it 'power creep', but I don't think it's anything as premeditated as that- just an emphasis on filling pages, rather than producing carefully ballanced content. That's my ttake on it, anyway…



#17 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:35 PM

I'd seriously doubt if 'filling pages' has ever been a concern for the teams working on each book. Just look at The Lost Dataslate - we had so much stuff it wouldn't all fit in the book. There's no shortage of ideas. Plus I think 'balance' in a game like this is quite different to a game like 40K, Warmahordes, or any other GM-less game. In those sorts of games you play against one another using rules. No one ‘controls’ the game. In a game like Dark Heresy there’s one person controlling it whilst the other people play with that person (and with one another). It’s not a competition, and there is no ‘winner’ or ‘loser’ in the traditional sense. That’s not to say that balance isn’t important, but some of the onus for that balance falls on the GM’s shoulders.

LC1984 said:

Good to see you HBMC.

I have several questions regarding "The Lathe Worlds". Maybe you can answer some.
1. The new skill "Logis Prophesying", when would you enable the +20 rank, and what should the xp cost be for +10 and +20?
2. Nearly the same question concering "Diplomacy" and its +20 rank.
3. Integrated weapons, what appearance can these weapons have? Could they be fully integrated into a cybernetic? Can every weapon be integrated (like heavy)? And if yes, wouldn't the heavy Las-Weapons be a little bit ridiculous ;) ? My GM is a littttttttttle bit worried about it (we came to the solution to just double the clip size)
4. NSC Stats for the Myrmidons. What use has the skill "Parry"? I know the skill from the newer systems (like BC), but it was never implemented into DH? Further "Drive "Surface", is it a skill or the talent "Talented"? And for what vehicles is it used, as the core only mentions Ground, Hover, Walker? The same for Navigate "Surface", skill or talent?

And can you give furhter information regarding the "Cataphract Armour", that the Myrmidons use, another kind of terminator suit? Same question goes for Nuada Pattern Aurora Cannon and Tatanis Siege Battery. Are these just heavy weapons or weapon plattforms or something else? And regarding the Aurora Cannon, is it a weapon based on laser technology?

5. What is your advise for Luminen Surge and Luminen Flare, if Luminen Blast and Luminen Shock are already updated into the newer versions from OW?

Thanks in advance for your patience and answers.

I will answer what I can, but please keep in mind that I cannot give official answers to rules questions. I can only give my opinion of what I’d do personally.

1. & 2. Oddly enough of the things in the New Skills/Talents section, those two were not written by me (I did all the new Luminem abilities). Generally speaking though I’d make the +10 and +20’s available every other rank. So if you can get one at Rank 3, then I’d have +10 at Rank 5 and +20 at Rank 7. If there aren’t enough ranks to do that, then I’d put the +20 in the last rank. As for cost? Depends on the initial cost. If the first is 100xp, then I’d make the +10 200xp and the +20 300xp. If the first was 200xp, then I’d make the +10 the same cost, and the +20 300xp. If the first was 300xp, I’d make ‘em all 300xp.

3. You’re right. A Lascannon would be a little crazy. As a GM I’d make you take a Toughness Test every time you fire as the enormous power usage drains your Potentia Coil.

My thoughts on their appearance is that they were essentially standard fire-arms, but connected directly to the user via bundles of cables and maybe the odd bracing here and there. Imagine an M16 that’s hard-wired into your arm. You can move it around and hold it by various grips, but it’s connected to you. You could drop it, but it’d drag behind you. The only way to remove it is to disconnect it from its power source (usually a Potentia Coil). The exception to this is of course the Lathe-Las Blaster. That replaces your forearm (from the elbow up, including your hand).

4. I’m not sure about those ones. They do appear to be holdovers from a BC-style profile. That’d be one for an errata I’d say. If it were me I’d just convert them across where appropriate, or ignore them where it didn’t work properly (like with Parry).

I’m not sure what those weapons are based on, but I imagine the Myrmidons to be immense Terminator-esque figures armed with massive heavy weapons that they alone can carry due to their own bulk. The Aurora cannon does sound like an energy weapon, IMO.

5. I wouldn’t say anything. Only War is a different product line to Dark Heresy, and if you want to port abilities between the two games that’s up to you and your players. OW and The Lathe Worlds were written at different times, and I did not write the Talents section of OW (Combat and Vehicles/Vehicle Profiles were my sections). I don’t think there’s any ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ way to move the abilities between games, just as long as you and the rest of your group agrees.

I hope that answers some of your questions, but again remember that this is simply how I’d do it. If you want official answers to these questions from the fine folks at FFG, you’ll need to E-mail them directly. |

BYE



#18 LC1984

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:33 AM

Mainly looking for another opinion and partially a guideline for my GM :) But thanks for the answers. Do you know who I can ask for more background information concerning the Myrmidons?

For the Luminen Talents I'll will have to take a look then, because we are already using a combination from the different rulebooks.

And meh for the appearance of integrated weapons, I was hopeful to get my Dlakhu Lasgun (and the Melta, the Steelburner, the Powerfist,…) integrated, so that it doesn't stand out too much (not that it makes much of a difference with a beefed up Mechanicus Secutor :))

 

 



#19 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:12 AM

Integrated =/= Hidden.

It just means that it is integrated with you. It's still a rifle.

BYE



#20 Fgdsfg

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:16 AM

LC1984 said:

Mainly looking for another opinion and partially a guideline for my GM :) But thanks for the answers. Do you know who I can ask for more background information concerning the Myrmidons?

For the Luminen Talents I'll will have to take a look then, because we are already using a combination from the different rulebooks.

And meh for the appearance of integrated weapons, I was hopeful to get my Dlakhu Lasgun (and the Melta, the Steelburner, the Powerfist,…) integrated, so that it doesn't stand out too much (not that it makes much of a difference with a beefed up Mechanicus Secutor :))

I'd argue that an Integrated weapon would stand out MORE, considering that anyone can wield a gun, but not everyone runs around with a gun instead of a hand, or with tubes and wires running everywhere.


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