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Why get a helicopter?


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#1 Warboss Krag

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:22 AM

I'm looking for opinions. I'm getting close to the capping point on my SSU force, and the burning question is: Why get a helicopter? The transports cost as much as a KV suit (any kind), they take up the same support slot as a KV suit, and they're a lot less sturdy - a lot more things can kill them. In addition, at the 300 point level, the board is scarcely large enough to take advantage of their mobility, without risking having them shot up in a trice - 16" may not sound like much range, until you realize that it's about 1/4 of the board in a 300 point game, and it's pretty easy for your opponent to move someone nasty within that 16" range and start shooting you - particularly the American walkers, with their over-abundant machineguns.

So, opinions: What are the advantages of taking a chopper?



#2 Dakkon426

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 08:48 AM

 Mobility, Mobility, Mobility. 



#3 slainex

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:38 AM

If mission = assassination or kill points and SSU force includes 3 helicopters = auto win unless your opponent also = SSU force that includes 3 helicopters, then roll dice and roflcopter.



#4 Warboss Krag

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:15 AM

Hooey. And if the other side has a flakfierling or a quad .50 walker, what then? Or worse, two of them. That equation equals dead choppers, and chopped up infantry, while there's little to fight those walkers…and their larger brother who's also doubtless there (or, God help you, if they're Americans and brought their big dog multiped - honestly, all it needs is a butt turret and it's a brother to the multiped from GITS 2nd Gig episode 1 - with its mass of AA MGs).



#5 blkdymnd

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:08 PM

Warboss Krag said:

Hooey. And if the other side has a flakfierling or a quad .50 walker, what then? Or worse, two of them. That equation equals dead choppers, and chopped up infantry, while there's little to fight those walkers…and their larger brother who's also doubtless there (or, God help you, if they're Americans and brought their big dog multiped - honestly, all it needs is a butt turret and it's a brother to the multiped from GITS 2nd Gig episode 1 - with its mass of AA MGs).

Theres not enough axis or allied anti air to make a difference yet unless you specifically build just for air.  A quad gun won't hurt you as badly as you think.  I seriously don't know how multi attack choppers will be combatted.



#6 Wardemon

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:05 PM

 In my last battle I fielded 2 transport helo's with 2 Fakyeli squads with Air Cav upgrade vs Allies I was able to use their their movement to avoid anti-air, drop troops, and use them to suppress units as I closed in.  They did get shot up, but only one went down.  And it took out a BBQ Squad and suppressed Hellboys while the Fakyeli ate them for lunch.  The other destroyed the anti-air walker that took out his wingman, and beat the hell out of the other walker allowing my rifle squad the money shot.  He fielded 2 light walkers which was the main armored AA units.  When flying high, they are not that easy to take out since only AA can shoot at them and their movement allows them to avoid the dangerous AA.  And the more anti-air they bring the less big nasties they put on the table.

Don't forget one key observation, they cause your opponent to forget about the other units coming to show some love.  It was amazing how much of a distraction they were.  The two rifle squads, Natasha, CC and Commisar squads must have had a invisibility cloak.  I'm exaggerating a bit, but seriously, they only received a couple of attacks their way but that was it.  They marched across the field relatively unscathed because of all the concern for the Helo's.  And woe to anyone who ignores them and focuses only on the land troops.

 



#7 KevinBakon

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 12:43 AM

 Quite a ringing endorsement! I'm dying to get the Allies aircraft whenever that comes out…q1 2013?  Those choppers seem deadly to me. We play with some tall terrain that will allow good cover should the chopper go low altitude, so survivability isn't a huge concern on our table. 



#8 Warboss Krag

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 01:30 PM

I do have a serious question for the French idiot who decided to give the helicopters 6 damage points. It's just another hit in the series of weaponry/machinery missteps from Dust Studios - the nerfing of the German MG, the impotence of the .50 cal against heavy infantry (the biggest one in my view), and now giving helicopters more damage-taking capacity than a medium combat walker.

That last is pure BS. As Americans know from their war experience in both Viet Nam and the Middle East, helicopters are relatively fragile contraptions, and they don't do well under fire. Even the relatively-heavily armored Soviet Hind designs are quite vulnerable to ground fire…ask the Mujuhadin about Afghanistan. This massive damage point allocation strikes me as a facile and artificial attempt to make the Dust helis more survivable, therefore making them worth taking in games. And I despise and loathe that sort of game design; it's low, and smacks of too much marketing department and too little serious game design with an eye towards balance.



#9 Dakkon426

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 02:29 PM

Warboss Krag said:

I do have a serious question for the French idiot who decided to give the helicopters 6 damage points. It's just another hit in the series of weaponry/machinery missteps from Dust Studios - the nerfing of the German MG, the impotence of the .50 cal against heavy infantry (the biggest one in my view), and now giving helicopters more damage-taking capacity than a medium combat walker.

That last is pure BS. As Americans know from their war experience in both Viet Nam and the Middle East, helicopters are relatively fragile contraptions, and they don't do well under fire. Even the relatively-heavily armored Soviet Hind designs are quite vulnerable to ground fire…ask the Mujuhadin about Afghanistan. This massive damage point allocation strikes me as a facile and artificial attempt to make the Dust helis more survivable, therefore making them worth taking in games. And I despise and loathe that sort of game design; it's low, and smacks of too much marketing department and too little serious game design with an eye towards balance.

Have you used the choppers yet? They are what they need to be, they have just enough DC to drop off the troops under light to medium AAA fire and then they pop. Just because you don't like how they pointed the choppers or made the stat line dose not mean bad design. They work in the game as is, you cannot compare them to nearly anything else in the game for the DC, tanks get far few dice rolled against them while the choppers just melt. Also warfare's rules are created by FFG not Dust Studio. 



#10 felkor

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:40 PM

You can't really compare the damage capacity of aircraft to ground vehicles directly.

The best direct comparison would be that, if a helicopter flies low, it's considered an Amor 2 vehicle.  And frankly, an Armor 4 vehicle with 4 health is probably going to last longer than an Amor 2 vehicle with 6 health. 

And remember, aircraft also get fewer dice for the armor rolls, making them more vulnerable to fire.



#11 Warboss Krag

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:53 AM

Good point about the vehicle consideration when  flying low. And as for the rules about all units DC, Armor, and so forth, I haven't seen any that don't slavishly follow the ratings from Dust Tactics, and those rules and ratings come out of Dust Studios in France.



#12 felkor

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:30 AM

Warboss Krag said:

Good point about the vehicle consideration when  flying low. And as for the rules about all units DC, Armor, and so forth, I haven't seen any that don't slavishly follow the ratings from Dust Tactics, and those rules and ratings come out of Dust Studios in France.



The Axis heavy walkers don't have the same DC or amour in Dust Warfare as in Dust Tactics, or at least the one (SturmKonig I think) doesn't have the same.  And there are a few differences in weapon line stats as well.

But I agree, the vast majority of units are pretty much the same.

I have to wonder if we'll see that change a bit more in the future though.  When Andy Chambers originally designed Dust Warfare, the intention was that you could still use the Dust Tactics unit cards.  When that idea fell through, the bulk of the game was already created, so you weren't really going to see stats change.  They don't have the same kind of restrictions holding them back now, however, so you might see more stats change in the future.  Of course, it's probably easier to just design the game with the already existing stats than to create new ones for the sake of creating new ones.






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