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Is there a limit on the use of Action Cards with the "Reaction" trait?


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#1 Yepesnopes

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:58 AM

I was wondering, if I have let say a typical soldier with WS and Resisilence trained and I have the Riposite, Counterblow and Retribution action cards.

Given the situation where I can activate all them (that is after an attack that missed me where I used block and parry), can I use the 3 of them against the same enemy in the same combat round?

I haven't found any place in the rule books that says the contrary, but it looks like to me a bit of a bug no? You can perform an action, then play three active defences and then 3 reactions, am I missing something?

Definitely the thing can even go worse since there are other reactions like hostile redirection which could make for a fourth attack extra attack.

Cheers,

Yepes


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#2 k7e9

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 07:09 AM

I believe there's no such restriction. If you meet the requirement on the reaction card you can play it. Hence, you could play all extra attacks if the enemy missed. But then again, you used a bunch of XP to acquire all those actions, and if the enemy is lucky they'll hit you and you won't be able to try the combo again until all your active defenses have recharged. And you'd be quite low on defenses until they recharged as well. Also, the enemy might well die before you have used all the reaction attacks. Chances are that an opponent that could survive all of those attacks would probably be good enough to have a decent chance of hitting you, even if you used all your defenses. Also, as a GM, I'd often use all expertise and aggression dice on the attack, trying to ensure a hit. If a player uses the rules to maximise their characters potential, why shouldn't I as a GM do my best to counter their efforts? ;)

If one of my players intended to make a defensive fighter I'd allow it. The only real drawback that I can find is that it might take a lot of time to resolve 3 or 4 attacks and that it might get boring for the other players. But that issue could easily be resolved by allowing the other players to roll for some of the counter attacks, speeding up game play and including the other players at the same time.



#3 gruntl

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:25 PM

No, I don't think there is a limit either. Then again, it's not that much worse than Double strike or Rapid shot, and those are just one card that have to be bought.

I'm not sure it's in the players best interest to play the cards like that either. As k7e9 writes the GM can always choose how much he spends from the ACE budget for a given attack.



#4 Matchstickman

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:52 PM

 I was just looking over the FAQ to check another answer and I came across this

Actions: Reactions & Immediate Use
The Reaction trait itself confers no special meaning (see Game
Term: Trait for more information on traits). However, some cards
bearing the Reaction trait feature effects that can be used immediately
in response to a triggering event of some sort. These special
responses do not count as a character’s action. They are performed
while a different character is being managed by the Active Player.
Any number of immediate use actions/responses can be activated
when an appropriate triggering act occurs. For example, a PC could
attempt to apply Dodge, Parry, and Block all against the same
incoming melee attack.

 

So it would seem to imply no limits at all.

However the counter argument is that once you have reacted to a parried attack with a Riposte action then the target has not just missed you with a Melee Attack, you have already taken another action and time has moved on.

Hmmmm, I am now imagining 2 fighters where a single attack triggers off a Riposte and that itself is Riposte'd, which is then Counterblow'd etc etc!



#5 Yepesnopes

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:55 PM

 Well, yes and no.

Since they are reactions you can act normally during your turn, for example using Double Strike, Whirlwind, Two Cuts etc and then use dodge, parry and block during the enemies turn (adding between 3 to 6 black dice to the enemy dice pool). I think this is a bit too much.

Regarding the ACE budget, well as per RAW there is a maximum of 1 expertise dice you may add per skill check and no limit on the number of aggression dice. Still, since NPCs share dice pools in my experience the dice budget does not last more than one round, so the player would only need to wait one round (or two) until the dice budget is depleted to give the the combo its best shot.

But I was just asking opinions, actually the wfrpg 3 mechanics are so easy to abuse that I don't care about one more, they rely too much in the good faith or fair play of both GMs and PCs.


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#6 Yepesnopes

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:56 PM

Matchstickman said:

 I was just looking over the FAQ to check another answer and I came across this

Actions: Reactions & Immediate Use
The Reaction trait itself confers no special meaning (see Game
Term: Trait for more information on traits). However, some cards
bearing the Reaction trait feature effects that can be used immediately
in response to a triggering event of some sort. These special
responses do not count as a character’s action. They are performed
while a different character is being managed by the Active Player.
Any number of immediate use actions/responses can be activated
when an appropriate triggering act occurs. For example, a PC could
attempt to apply Dodge, Parry, and Block all against the same
incoming melee attack.

 

So it would seem to imply no limits at all.

However the counter argument is that once you have reacted to a parried attack with a Riposte action then the target has not just missed you with a Melee Attack, you have already taken another action and time has moved on.

Hmmmm, I am now imagining 2 fighters where a single attack triggers off a Riposte and that itself is Riposte'd, which is then Counterblow'd etc etc!

Thanks, I think you hold a good point here!


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#7 k7e9

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 05:05 AM

But then again you leave yourself open to being hit, while you wait on the turn in which to spend all your defenses and reactions. Not playing any defenses could be devastating, as hits can be quite lethal in WFRP, so then the player is potentially taking a huge risk to make the combo. While at the same time the player risks getting hit even if playing all their defenses at once, and that would ruin the combo. If it pays off then well, congratulations you risked and you were rewarded (this time). Maybe next time the player won't be so lucky.

Also, I never let the players know exactly how large the creatures ACE-pools are, or how much I have left. Generally I hold on to at least some of the pools and use it at an opportune moment. I try only to use a trickle of A-dice, and then use A+E-dice when it really matters.

Furthermore, the combo would be quite useless against many low powered enemies (such as goblins etc.) as they potentially die from the first counter attack, making the other defense cards "useless" from a counter attack perspective. Also, one dead goblin from that combo might not be too much of a loss from the goblins point of view if there are a more of them waiting to attack (the now active defenseless player).

Also, the counter attacks doesn't do that much damage if I remember correctly. They are quite similar in damage as the Melee strike are they not? More powerful foes might easily withstand all the counter attacks. For example, an Orc in armor could probably soak 6-8 damage or so (I don't have their stats at hand), while a fighter with a hand weapon (the fighter probably has a hand weapon, since they need the shield to be allowed to block, which is part of the combo) might deal 8-12 damage, depending on STR-value and number of successes. So when using the combo against a more powerful foe they might only do a couple of damage on each counter attack, provided that the player succeeds. There's a good probability that the orc in the example survives and can attack the player brutally (since he/she has no active defenses left after the combo). Even worse, what if the Orc manages to score a hit, despite all the defenses?

So I can't really feel that this is an issue. The player using this combo will risk a lot and it should pay off but sometimes it might just go horribly wrong.



#8 dvang

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:51 AM

Simple.

Attack the PC with more than one enemy.

If they spend all those defenses and reactions against one enemy, they won't have them available for the next. Also, since they recharge, they won't have them available to use against any attacks the next round.

It's that tradeoff decision. You either spend them all on one attack that you *really* need to avoid, or else you space them out to reduce the chances of all attacks coming towards you.

Also, there are optional rules on A/C/E, and many GMs house rule as well. Some GMs don't share pools between monsters, so each NPC has its own pool (actually simple to keep track of). Some GMs share pools, but increase the pool starting totals based on the number of monsters of that type. Both systems work well, and give the NPCs a well-deserved bump in ability to attack and defend.






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