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Troll key & purse question


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#1 dj2.0

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:28 PM

Had a look through the topics but could not locate any that addressed this question: if these objectives are added to the staging area in quest stage 1 (1st Hobbit quest) before any trolls appear, does this mean they can never be claimed? That they are simply placed in the staging area unguarded and thus are never attached to a troll? Which means ultimately heroes cannot have Sacks removed by Bilbo (hence, at all)?

Maybe I am missing something but if not it seems overly harsh that you can practically lose the game at the turn of the first card.



#2 richsabre

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:55 PM

if there are no trolls in play they get discarded when revealed

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#3 dj2.0

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:26 AM

That was what I figured but the cards themselves do not give that indication and the the rulebook on objectives does not clarify. Thanks.

So the objective is discarded but a new encounter is not drawn in its place? (this is how we played).



#4 bollywongaloid

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 01:13 AM

I thought you could attach them to the trolls out of play anyway as the cards do not specify 'in play'.  That's how I interpreted it anyway I've never questioned it :-s



#5 richsabre

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 02:01 AM

im sure someone sent a clarification request to caleb- ill try and find it

EDIT - here you are - from james at bgg


If there are no Troll enemies in play when Troll Purse or Troll Key are revealed, then they are placed in the discard pile.
Cheers,
Caleb

 


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#6 bollywongaloid

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 02:27 AM

Bugger, then I've been playing wrong and I've still not found the bloody teasure lol.  Thanks for your help rich



#7 richsabre

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 02:27 AM

bollywongaloid said:

Bugger, then I've been playing wrong and I've still not found the bloody teasure lol.  Thanks for your help rich

no worries- me neither haha


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#8 benhanses

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:37 AM

richsabre said:

bollywongaloid said:

 

Bugger, then I've been playing wrong and I've still not found the bloody teasure lol.  Thanks for your help rich

 

 

no worries- me neither haha

 

It makes that location that returns cards from the discard pile to the encounter deck useful to leave on the table instead of exploring it.  I think that's what I like about the challenge of this quest, the various locations that you actully feel the need to leave out in play to use their game text.

 

Alternatively, if you are running a deck with dwarves, The End Comes ("After a Dwarf character leaves play, shuffle the encounter discard pile back into the encounter deck.") becomes an actual useable card for this encounter on site two.


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#9 leptokurt

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:03 PM

1. Any effects in general don't interact with cards that are not in play, unless it's explicitely stated. In this case, when there are no trolls in play, you can't attach the objectives and discard them.

2. Quest card 2B tells you to shuffle the discard pile back into the encounter deck. That way the objectives will always be available in the encounter deck when you meet up with the troll trio.



#10 benhanses

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 04:49 AM

leptokurt said:

 

1. Any effects in general don't interact with cards that are not in play, unless it's explicitely stated. In this case, when there are no trolls in play, you can't attach the objectives and discard them.

2. Quest card 2B tells you to shuffle the discard pile back into the encounter deck. That way the objectives will always be available in the encounter deck when you meet up with the troll trio.

 

 

Good catch on #2.  Forgot that bit…

Another possible solution is to use Denethor's ability to speed up the discarding of the encounter deck.  I have never used him in any deck so far, so perhaps I'll try and give him a little playing  time to see how effective he is for this quest…


"... but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend...."       -Faramir, The Lord of the Rings, Book IV, The Window of the West)

 

"Since it is so likely that children will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage."     - C.S. Lewis


#11 dj2.0

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:09 PM

leptokurt said:

 

2. Quest card 2B tells you to shuffle the discard pile back into the encounter deck. That way the objectives will always be available in the encounter deck when you meet up with the troll trio.

 

 

That's why we figured they are discarded, after a frustrating debate about whether to attach them to an out of play troll (obviously wrong) or leave them in the staging area (obviously crippling to us but the closest thing to the printed rules we have).

Many thanks for the official clarification and all the help offered. Still no official word on whether the discarded card counts as a card draw? (we figured yes).



#12 leptokurt

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 11:10 AM

dj2.0 said:

leptokurt said:

 

2. Quest card 2B tells you to shuffle the discard pile back into the encounter deck. That way the objectives will always be available in the encounter deck when you meet up with the troll trio.

 

 

That's why we figured they are discarded, after a frustrating debate about whether to attach them to an out of play troll (obviously wrong) or leave them in the staging area (obviously crippling to us but the closest thing to the printed rules we have).

Many thanks for the official clarification and all the help offered. Still no official word on whether the discarded card counts as a card draw? (we figured yes).

 

Not sure if that is what you means, but of you draw an objective card during quest stage 1B, it will be discarded with no effects. Only if it had the guarded or surge keywords you would have to draw another card. So basically you want to draw these objectives in stage 1B, simply because they don't harm you.



#13 dj2.0

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:38 AM

I am referring to the following situation:

Quest stage 1A, or 1B: Objective is drawn and discarded. It is a 2 player game. How many cards are now drawn from the encounter deck - 1, or 2?



#14 CJMatos

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:17 AM

 I believe that you have to draw 1 more card ffrom the encounter deck.

 

It's the same situation than if you drew a treachery and cancel its effect.


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#15 dj2.0

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 06:48 PM

CJMatos said:

 I believe that you have to draw 1 more card ffrom the encounter deck.

 

It's the same situation than if you drew a treachery and cancel its effect.

What leads you to that conclusion?



#16 spalanzani

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 11:36 PM

richsabre said:

bollywongaloid said:

 

Bugger, then I've been playing wrong and I've still not found the bloody teasure lol.  Thanks for your help rich

 

 

no worries- me neither haha

I was beginning to think it was just me and my apalling luck!  


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#17 Marginal0

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:57 PM

So, for the record:

If at stage 1 you happen to reveal troll purse, it's effect won't resolve. But why would you have to reveal an extra card? I can't find that in the rulebook.

Still a pretty f'n hard encounter imo. If you're unlucky and draw specific cards during setup, you might get doomed 4. :P



#18 Chaos101

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:22 PM

Hi Guys,

I played this quest last night with some success. However we had a situation that we were not 100% clear on and are hoping someone might have an answer…..

We had two of the trolls engaged with us (Tom and Bert if I remember correctly). The troll Tom had the shadow card dealt to him revealed as the Troll Key.

The troll key has the card effect: "If Troll Key is discarded, resolve its "When Revealed" effect if able. When Revealed: Attach to a Troll enemy. Response: After attached Troll enemy takes damage as the result of an attack, the first player may exhaust Bilbo Baggins to claim this objective and attach it to him."

Obviously we ignore the "When revealed" effect as it was dealt as a shadow card. The confusion came over the response part…. As "Shadow cards remain on the enemy to which they were dealt throughout the combat phase. If that enemy leaves play, discard its shadow card from play. At the end of the combat phase, discard all shadow cards that were dealt this round." (page 20 core rules).

In the combat phase Legolas attacked and damaged the troll Tom (but not killed, so he stayed in play). And as the troll key states "After attached Troll enemy takes damage as the result of an attack, the first player may exhaust Bilbo Baggins to claim this objective and attach it to him." And as the troll key is still in play because you only discard shadow effects at the end of the combat phase, can we exhaust Bilbo to claim the objective even though it was dealt as a shadow effect?

Many Thanks,

Lee


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#19 Ellareth

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:45 AM

Chaos101 said:

The troll key has the card effect: "If Troll Key is discarded, resolve its "When Revealed" effect if able. When Revealed: Attach to a Troll enemy. Response: After attached Troll enemy takes damage as the result of an attack, the first player may exhaust Bilbo Baggins to claim this objective and attach it to him."

 

You also ignore card effects if it is dealt as a shadow card.
So you may not trigger it's response, because only "shadow" part of the card is in effect, nothing else.

 



#20 Chaos101

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:34 PM

Thanks Ellareth.

But playing Devil's advocate, if the troll key is discarded the "when revealed" effect occurs….

So after it is discarded as a shadow card, can we not then initiate the "when revealed" effect and attach it to a troll?

Whether or not there is a shadow effect on the card, it is still being discarded. The core rules do say "discard" when mentioning shadow cards at the end of combat. Hence the troll ley is being discarded.

As I say, I'm playing Devil's advocate, but you can see how this can be interpreted either way.

Lee


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