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Tolkien lore discussion thread #1 - what would you have done?


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#1 richsabre

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:12 AM

this is an idea that ive wanted to do since not having time to do tolkienology….however feel free to make your own threads on this, and just number them. ideas are open….can be anything from what im doing on this thread to if saruman could have done as well as gandalf (un corrupted of course), other 'what ifs', questions you have for the forum, thoughts, ideas and so on.

anyways this series of threads are about tolkien lore inspired by a forum im part of…. lotrplaza.com, which is a great source for tolkien lore and has some very insightful members who have been 'tolkien-ing' decades before i was born, so check it out if you like tolkien lore

this one is about the following

what would you have done differently in the events and descisions of the fellowship?

can be any descision, however given we have the gift of hindsight, try and justify your answer to some extent, but it doesnt really matter if you dont also feel free to use mine or others as a jumping off point and say if you agree or disagree

 

heres mine- i would not have lingered so long in rivendell. i know the scouts were out finding where the nazgul had gone, plans had to be made and so on, but late december was just asking for trouble, which was found in the passes….though i suppose sauron had a part to play in that, though we're never told directly if he was responsible for the terrible weather.

anyways i think even gandalf come to regret his procrastination on the matter of the ring, not least on the matter of letting frodo set off to rivendell so late which almost proved fatal

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#2 starhawk77

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:12 AM

I would have had the eagles fly over to Mordor and drop the Ring into Mount Doom.

Justification: Uhh…because winning is good?



#3 richsabre

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:33 AM

starhawk77 said:

 

I would have had the eagles fly over to Mordor and drop the Ring into Mount Doom.

Justification: Uhh…because winning is good?

 

 

thanks for bringing this up starhawk as its a fascinating subject

 i hear this one alot….theres often discussion for or against this…im on the against side- heres why

firstly i read somewhere (and  i cant remember where….probably wasnt the books directly) that the chamber of fire was set at an angle from the summit/chute (or whatever you would call it)…..so dropping a ring down would be unlikely to work as it may not reach the chasm

secondly even if you could get the eagles…..and stubborn race if there was one…..to take you to mordor, sauron would know and would have about 10,000 orc archers shoot you, or get the nazgul to take care of you, so i doubt youd get over the mountains.

thirdlty it makes for a bad book (ok thats a bad lore reasoni admit)

i wonder if the idea ever crossed elrond's mind though?

there was only ever 5 serious paths to be considered (according to the council)

1.  keep it in rivendell, risking an eventual assault

2. take to the undying lands, which wouldnt help middle earth

3. drop it in the sea where it would find its way back to sauron

4. destroy it, which despite being the most dangerous, was the only way to be sure sauron would be finished

5. get bombadil to care for it, but that idea was doubtful….though it is an interesting topic in itself. of course bombadil would be overwhelmed, but i think the good question is, would he have agreed….even if all the free peoples of middle earthed asked?

another good question that ive mentioned in one of my chapters is, how did gandalf intend to enter morder?

through the gate? unlikely given how well its guarded

the pass? not likely given he had an idea of what guarded it

all the way round to nurn? bit of a long trip!!! sauron would have claimed half of middle earth by then, not to mention the walk through enemy lands

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#4 GrandSpleen

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:53 PM

 Maybe Gandalf was planning to ride the Eagles around to Nurn :)



#5 Bullroarer Took

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 02:50 PM

 The sailor in me has always wondered why Gandalf didn't send the hobbits to the Grey Havens and then sail the ring down to Gondor.


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#6 richsabre

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:01 PM

Bullroarer Took said:

 

 The sailor in me has always wondered why Gandalf didn't send the hobbits to the Grey Havens and then sail the ring down to Gondor.

 

 

i think the main reason was that it wasnt safe- there was pirates in umbar and around the shores of gondor. aside to this i think sailing on the open sea (now im no sailor here) was perhaps more dangerous than foot…..storms etc, and once youre on a boat you cant hide from things in the sky.

i think the going by foot in secrect was the thing sauron least expected, as stated in the books this was what gave the company their cloak of secrecy.

PS- just realised another reason and the reason they didnt want to go back west- it was stated that it was too dangerous to retrace their route back through the trollshaws to the shire and to the tower hills….this would have been the route theyd have to take to get to the havens to get to a boat


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#7 benhanses

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:58 AM

richsabre said:

another good question that ive mentioned in one of my chapters is, how did gandalf intend to enter morder?

through the gate? unlikely given how well its guarded

the pass? not likely given he had an idea of what guarded it

all the way round to nurn? bit of a long trip!!! sauron would have claimed half of middle earth by then, not to mention the walk through enemy lands

rich


 

I honestly believe that Gandalf had no set idea/plan on how they would enter Mordor.  A couple thoughts behind this:

1) Being widely travelled, perhaps he believed (or possibly heard) there was hidden pathways to sneak through the mountains (purely my own speculation).

2)  More importantly, as campy as it may sound, I think he just had blind faith that something would present itself.  Throughout the Hobbit and the LOTR cycle, Gandalf is presented as a being who inspires.  He is a wizard, but Tolkien rarely displays his "magic", which makes sense, since the wizards were not intended to directly interfere or seek power in the affairs of Middle-Earth (which Saruman obviously violates).  Instead, his implied "powers" largely seem to rest in his abilities to inspire the men, elves, dwarves, and hobbits that he interacts with…  It seems well within the intent for his character then (at least to me) that he would have attempted a path that he felt provided the best chance of success/safety and hold out hope that a solution to the one seemingly insurmountable obstacle (namely, getting into Mordor undetected) would present itself.


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#8 richsabre

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:06 AM

benhanses said:

 

richsabre said:

 

another good question that ive mentioned in one of my chapters is, how did gandalf intend to enter morder?

through the gate? unlikely given how well its guarded

the pass? not likely given he had an idea of what guarded it

all the way round to nurn? bit of a long trip!!! sauron would have claimed half of middle earth by then, not to mention the walk through enemy lands

rich

 


 

 

I honestly believe that Gandalf had no set idea/plan on how they would enter Mordor.  A couple thoughts behind this:

1) Being widely travelled, perhaps he believed (or possibly heard) there was hidden pathways to sneak through the mountains (purely my own speculation).

2)  More importantly, as campy as it may sound, I think he just had blind faith that something would present itself.  Throughout the Hobbit and the LOTR cycle, Gandalf is presented as a being who inspires.  He is a wizard, but Tolkien rarely displays his "magic", which makes sense, since the wizards were not intended to directly interfere or seek power in the affairs of Middle-Earth (which Saruman obviously violates).  Instead, his implied "powers" largely seem to rest in his abilities to inspire the men, elves, dwarves, and hobbits that he interacts with…  It seems well within the intent for his character then (at least to me) that he would have attempted a path that he felt provided the best chance of success/safety and hold out hope that a solution to the one seemingly insurmountable obstacle (namely, getting into Mordor undetected) would present itself.

 

 

good ideas…..could have been a mix of the 2.

i do find it hard to believe that mordor had no othe passes other than morgul….however …whats not to say they werent guarded? i mean sauron had literally thousands of years to poke out every corner of his domain….so i think the chances are he'd have it covered….but whether theyd be as deadly as shelob i dont know…

in comparison to this i also find it strange if there were other passes, that gondor did not have them mapped….after the 1st downfall they obviously took control…though fencing it off would be a better descroption, so you would think…'hey, lets not leave any gaps' and send scouts out….but i guess that knowldege was most likely lost

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#9 Captain Poe

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:21 AM

1. Take the ring from Frodo.

2. Give it Sam.

3. Send Frodo back to the shire with merry and pippin.

4. Fill in the 3 fellowship slots with Glorfindel, Erestor, and Galdor

 



#10 Dam

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:23 AM

Captain Poe said:

1. Take the ring from Frodo.

2. Give it Sam.

3. Send Frodo back to the shire with merry and pippin.

4. Fill in the 3 fellowship slots with Glorfindel, Erestor, and Galdor

No Eagles involved ?

Although, less hobbits, I approve.


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#11 richsabre

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:33 AM

Captain Poe said:

 

1. Take the ring from Frodo.

2. Give it Sam.

3. Send Frodo back to the shire with merry and pippin.

4. Fill in the 3 fellowship slots with Glorfindel, Erestor, and Galdor

 

 

 

this is funny as it reminds me of something i say to my partner everytime i see elijah wood- man that guy portrayed frodo awefully….i mean obviously jackson told him to, but he makes frodo into a…..well i wont say it but its basically another name for a cat….whereas he wasnt like that at all!

on a serious note i think the elves were getting less and less concerned with middle earth and more looking westwards as gildor says when he meets frodo so im not sure the noldor would have committed to it, even in the situation

also going back to the frodo thing, weve got to remember he was bearing the ring whilst going through the same as the rest of the fellowship. he'd been stabbed 3 times by the end of the books, captured, poisened, half mad…..though i guess he did fail in the end….question is would sam have lasted all the way to morder if they were reversed?

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#12 Captain Poe

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:42 AM

If I recall correctly, They wanted to send glorfindel… or glorfindel wanted to go… I vaguely remember him being an option, but gandalf eventually said that friendship would be more valuable than an elf lord… it worked out in the end, but they really could have used an elf that was learned in the art of balrog killing.

 

As for Frodo… i don't like him in the books (such a shmuck compared to Bilbo), and i absolutely hate him in the films. They made him an irredeemable jerk. my biggest gripe is he spends 80% of the trilogy making what can only be described as a "Pooping face"… sigh, so bad.



#13 richsabre

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:50 AM

Captain Poe said:

If I recall correctly, They wanted to send glorfindel… or glorfindel wanted to go… I vaguely remember him being an option, but gandalf eventually said that friendship would be more valuable than an elf lord… it worked out in the end, but they really could have used an elf that was learned in the art of balrog killing.

 

As for Frodo… i don't like him in the books (such a shmuck compared to Bilbo), and i absolutely hate him in the films. They made him an irredeemable jerk. my biggest gripe is he spends 80% of the trilogy making what can only be described as a "Pooping face"… sigh, so bad.

yes…..you took the words (or picture) right out of my mouth!


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#14 Captain Poe

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:52 AM

richsabre said:

on a serious note i think the elves were getting less and less concerned with middle earth and more looking westwards as gildor says when he meets frodo so im not sure the noldor would have committed to it, even in the situation

 

Found it:

 

'There remain two more to be found,' said Elrond. "These I will consider. Of my household I
may find some that it seems good to me to send.'
`But that will leave no place for us!' cried Pippin in dismay. `We don't want to be left behind.
We want to go with Frodo.'
`That is because you do not understand and cannot imagine what lies ahead,' said Elrond.
`Neither does Frodo,' said Gandalf, unexpectedly supporting Pippin. 'Nor do any of us see
clearly. It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they
would still wish to go, or wish that they dared, and be shamed and unhappy. I think, Elrond, that in
this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you
chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road
to the Fire by the power that is in him.



#15 richsabre

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:57 AM

this leads to an interesting question…would he have gone if elrond had sent him (lets assume he would) and would things have gone differently? i tmepted to say sending such a powerful person would be attracting saurons gaze, but we did have strider and gandalf afterall…..perhaps glorfindel would be pushing it given he was around during saurons old days?

i still am not sure about the noldor though….i mean the others all had reasons to go the way to mordor….legolas had mirkwood near, aragorn and boromir gondor and gimli (actually cant recall gimlis…it had something to do with dains orders i think?)

but the noldor were going the opposite way to their intended desitination…but obviously i must be wrong given the quote you give, but it would have been interesting to see the outcome if glorfindel went

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#16 schmoo34

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:23 AM

Not all of the Noldor.  Elrohir and Elladan went into the "Valley of the dead" with Aragorn and also assisted in the defense of Gondor.

 

And Prince Imrahil, albeit, I don't think he was Noldorian…but they said he had some elf blood in him…he was a half-elf was the steward of Gondor for quite a long time in the book and was pivotal for the defense of Gondor AND the last stand at the black gate, albeit the movie didn't even include him.

 

The thought that went through my mind while reading the book is that the lair of the Balrog was very deep and ancient and they had to have the ability to make cement or otherwise there wouldn't have been the walls at Helm's Deep or in Gondor (along with many many other references).  Why not put the ring in a giant block of cement and then toss it down into the Balrog's abyss? or even put it in the bottom of the sea?

 

Or better yet, make a giant statue of a king of Numeneor and put this ring inside the block of cement in the middle of the statue.  It wasn't going to go anywhere and even Sauron's minions left the statues alone.



#17 richsabre

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:27 AM

schmoo34 said:

 

Not all of the Noldor.  Elrohir and Elladan went into the "Valley of the dead" with Aragorn and also assisted in the defense of Gondor.

 

And Prince Imrahil, albeit, I don't think he was Noldorian…but they said he had some elf blood in him…he was a half-elf was the steward of Gondor for quite a long time in the book and was pivotal for the defense of Gondor AND the last stand at the black gate, albeit the movie didn't even include him.

 

The thought that went through my mind while reading the book is that the lair of the Balrog was very deep and ancient and they had to have the ability to make cement or otherwise there wouldn't have been the walls at Helm's Deep or in Gondor (along with many many other references).  Why not put the ring in a giant block of cement and then toss it down into the Balrog's abyss? or even put it in the bottom of the sea?

 

Or better yet, make a giant statue of a king of Numeneor and put this ring inside the block of cement in the middle of the statue.  It wasn't going to go anywhere and even Sauron's minions left the statues alone.

 

 

true- though elladan and elrohir were always odd ones out, holding incredible grudges against orcs and were more ranger than noldr (in their actions at least)…..though i think if any noldor were to go it should be those two

as for the cement/sea, it was said that sauron would end up finding the ring…. no matter how long it took they  didnt want to risk it. seas can change, rocks can be weathered…remember the ring had a will of its own……


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#18 schmoo34

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:29 AM

richsabre said:

this is an idea that ive wanted to do since not having time to do tolkienology….however feel free to make your own threads on this, and just number them. ideas are open….can be anything from what im doing on this thread to if saruman could have done as well as gandalf (un corrupted of course), other 'what ifs', questions you have for the forum, thoughts, ideas and so on.

anyways this series of threads are about tolkien lore inspired by a forum im part of…. lotrplaza.com, which is a great source for tolkien lore and has some very insightful members who have been 'tolkien-ing' decades before i was born, so check it out if you like tolkien lore

this one is about the following

what would you have done differently in the events and descisions of the fellowship?

can be any descision, however given we have the gift of hindsight, try and justify your answer to some extent, but it doesnt really matter if you dont also feel free to use mine or others as a jumping off point and say if you agree or disagree

 

heres mine- i would not have lingered so long in rivendell. i know the scouts were out finding where the nazgul had gone, plans had to be made and so on, but late december was just asking for trouble, which was found in the passes….though i suppose sauron had a part to play in that, though we're never told directly if he was responsible for the terrible weather.

anyways i think even gandalf come to regret his procrastination on the matter of the ring, not least on the matter of letting frodo set off to rivendell so late which almost proved fatal

rich

richsabre said:

heres mine- i would not have lingered so long in rivendell. i know the scouts were out finding where the nazgul had gone, plans had to be made and so on, but late december was just asking for trouble, which was found in the passes….though i suppose sauron had a part to play in that, though we're never told directly if he was responsible for the terrible weather.

anyways i think even gandalf come to regret his procrastination on the matter of the ring, not least on the matter of letting frodo set off to rivendell so late which almost proved fatal

rich

Tolkien lingered EVERYWHERE.  Frodo took over a year to even leave the shire.  Rivendell was many months as you mentioned, even King Theoden lingered as he rallied the Rohirrim to the cause of Gondor. 

 

The only thing missing was a giant lingering in the middle of the battle of Helm's Deep where Aragorn stopped to explain to Pippin and Merry the finer points of sword play and eating second breakfast before a good battle in between orc slayings.  Although, I insist the "Keeping count" of Gimli and Legolas came pretty darn close.

 

It is easy to identify the one single character in the book Tolkien most identifies with….Treebeard.  Because an ent works on ent time and there is no ent discussion that is hasty.

 

LOTR and the Hobbit don't jive, even though it is the same era.  There was an elven king in Mirkwood, talking trolls, talking spiders, everything was talking and much more interactive than in LOTR…but I'm digressing.



#19 richsabre

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:34 AM

true true- theres a certain pace to tolkien that no other authors have….a pace ive seen stated as 'boring and bland' however i obviously wont agree with this, i can understand how some people will find the pace rather lacking (compared to modern standards that is)

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#20 schmoo34

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 10:49 AM

richsabre said:

true true- theres a certain pace to tolkien that no other authors have….a pace ive seen stated as 'boring and bland' however i obviously wont agree with this, i can understand how some people will find the pace rather lacking (compared to modern standards that is)

rich

I enjoyed the book(s), and at many times did find it dry but it was good enough to stick with and finish.  There were even quite a few comical moments…the one that made me laugh the most is when Merry is in the "Den of healing" in Gondor and awakens from the black death and is embarrassed because he left his backpack on the battlefield and Aragorn just ignores the comment and continues to treat him.  Then when Aragorn leaves, Pippin calls him an ass and points to the backpack lying on the table along with him.

 

Some of the battle details are rarely revealed.  Tolkien was more into discussing flanks and generals and captains and there were many, and it was interesting how the movies focused on just a few characters and made it very Braveheart-esque.

 

Tolkien also did a wonderful job with Smeagol/Gollum and the weight of the ring.  It was, by far, the best of his work in my mind.  I also thoroughly enjoyed how Tolkien handled Eowyn.  She was a much deeper character in the book.  Her anguish and agony regarding being left behind to be a maiden by Theoden and Aragorn and the deep hurt she carried as a result of it and Faramir's flirtations and daily walks to help her to recover and forget about it.  It was wonderfully done.

 

It's as if the movie just ignored the best parts and focused on the "ok" parts.  Two other things that make me slap my head is that Denethor had a palantir stone with him…and THAT Is why he went mad…not because he was just a panzy and Boromir died.  Also, Gandalf was the third elven ring of power holder!!  How could they have left that out!!

 

Again, I am digressing…sorry. 






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