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So I'm confused … There's no Jedi?


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#1 apollyonbob

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:36 PM

So, if what I'm reading is correct, Edge of the Empire has the Force, and it has the concept of a Force User, but there's basically no concept of a Jedi for character creation, is that right? (Force user and Jedi being not synonymous in the slightest in the Star Wars universe.)

I mean, is Fantasy Flight really going to make a Star Wars RPG that launches with no Jedi in it? That doesn't strike anyone else as … well … maybe not the best choice?

I mean, I know, the 2nd(!) expansion will have Jedi. But … It seems uh that such a thing kind of depends upon the core and 1st expansion selling well enough to justify it right? And people actually wanting to buy it after they hear about it launching without Jedi?

Maybe I'm just confused and Jedi are totally represented. It doesn't seem like it, but there's really nothing about it specifically on the web page.

Although I guess it wouldn't be the first RPG that launched without Jedi at character creation I guess. What was that other Star Wars RPG that was like "Oh Jedi are super powerful and so should be rare." I think it was really successful wasn't it? Really captured the feel of-

 

Oh.

Ohhhhhh.

Yeah I think that's gonna be hard to sell to my gaming group. For what it's worth, the system sounds really neat mechanically.



#2 cetiken

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:16 PM

Lacking Jedi is both an setting approprate and thematiclly correct. I applaud FFG for their bold decision. Many people want many diffrent things from a Star Wars RPG. Realistically it's impossible to please all of them. I think FFG picked three excellent styles of play to start the initial lines off with. EotE will feature fringers like smugglers bounty hunters and their ilk. Next year we will see a game about playing a hero of the rebellion. Finally a year after that we can all wield glowsicks and be angsty about the lure of the dark side.   Further game lines have not been announced, but a reasonable person might expect an Imperial book line to follow. 

Its not as if this is the first Star Wars RPG. If anyone absolutely needs their lightsabers to play Star Wars you can enjoy Saga or WEG's systems and check in in a couple of years. 

In the meantime, please curtail the chicken little routine and contribute to the conversation about what the game is.  



#3 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:07 AM

While the option to play "fresh from the Temple with lightsaber in hand Jedi" (like you could in all the d20 versions of Star Wars) doesn't exist in EotE, that's not to say it's impossible to play a "Jedi."  You're just going to have to accept that since this game is set in the Rebellion Era, Jedi as they are classically perceived simply don't exist in any great numbers.

There is a full chapter on The Force, including a Force-user specialization and access to Force Powers that mirror what we generally see in the movies.  There are stats for a lightsaber (and they're by far the most powerful version of the weapon to date), so you can have you're lightsaber-swinging Force-user… it just won't be right out the gate.  Again, perfectly fitting for the theme and setting of Edge of the Empire.  And after seeing repeatedly, as both player and GM, how dominating a Jedi could be both in terms of game mechanics and campaign story-arc, I'm actually kind of glad to see that they're not being pushed to the forefront in this version.  Force-users in this game are following a similar development path to Luke Skywalker prior to his crash-course training session in ESB under the tutelage of a Jedi Grand Master (who'd spent centuries training would-be Jedi).  The vast majority of players aren't going to have that option, and instead will have to "learn as they go."  It's very much like the WEG version of d6 Star Wars, which was quite popular and to this day has a devoted fan-base that continues to play the game, where brandishing a lightsaber simply got you into a lot of trouble and it could take a while for your would-be Jedi to become a bad-ass… although once they reached that point (about 5D in their Force skills; high enough to reliably activate most of their powers as well as maintain Lightsaber Combat in spite of the multi-action dice penalty) they truly were a force to be reckoned with.

As for Star Wars Galaxies, it actually was quite popular, at least until the New Combat Upgrade which pretty much decimated the pre-existing subscriber base, with the game only being put to rest in December 2011 to make way for the "new-hawtness" of Star Wars: The Old Republic, which in spite of having Jedi and Sith hasn't toppled WoW as the dominant MMO, so an awesome game does not having Jedi automatically make.  And once Galaxies had it so that anyone could start as Jedi, it got to the point you couldn't swing a dead womp rat without hitting a Jedi, which was ridiculous for a game that was set in an era when Jedi are supposed to be rare and uncommon.  So the fact that there was enough money being made to keep the game going until the end of last year, when it'd been out for close to a decade… yeah, that's a sign of a game that completely failed right out the gate *rolls eyes*


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#4 I. J. Thompson

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 05:01 AM

 Gotta agree with all DM's points above, and, for the record, re-state that Star Wars Galaxies was awesome until they started letting everybody be Jedi.

God, I miss that game… 



#5 EldritchFire

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 05:23 AM

I. J. Thompson said:

 Gotta agree with all DM's points above, and, for the record, re-state that Star Wars Galaxies was awesome until they started letting everybody be Jedi.

God, I miss that game… 

+1.

Also, the first time I looked at the classes and specs, my first comment was, "So they're doing Galaxies as a pen and paper RPG? SWEETS!!"

You can't look at those pages and not see the resemblance, it's uncanny!

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#6 Kaiohx

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:17 AM

As stated, EotE takes place during the Rebellion-era. Some EU silliness not withstanding, some gaming groups will just have to accept there are no more Jedi unless you names are:
Yoda
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Luke Skywalker is not proclaimed a Jedi until the very very end.

 

Want to be technical about arguing Force-users are not Jedi? That's cool. You should remember that Sith are not Jedi either. Of them, you can't be a Sith unless your name is:
Darth Vader
Emperor Palpatine

Being a Jedi is more than just owning a lightsaber. Its a religion. A way of thinking. Because of the Jedi Purge at the hands of Lord Vader, there are 2 Jedi left. That's it. Who is going to be training more? So it makes sense there aren't any others.

"…and now the Jedi are all but extinct" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
"When I am gone, last of the Jedi will you be" - Yoda

 

Now, what about the EU? Ok, what about it? There's a handful of former Jedi and padawans hiding in deep holes and if they start whipping out glowy blades of death and throwing rocks around with their minds, its a sure way to get heavy Imperial notice (the Dark Lord of the Sith kind). They didn't survive 18+ years easily. Most of them even hid or threw away their lightsabers altogether. These people aren't stupid…most PCs are and can't wait to play with their toys.

So here's the deal. Let your players write up all the Jedi they want. The only person stopping them is the GM, since there are more than enough rules in the game to make one. Let them know that once its discovered they are Force-users with laser-swords, all hell is going to break loose, and then proceed to chase them around the galaxy with Darth Vader until he kills each one horribly.

Won't that be fun?



#7 awayputurwpn

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:43 AM

Kaiohx said:

As stated, EotE takes place during the Rebellion-era. Some EU silliness not withstanding, some gaming groups will just have to accept there are no more Jedi unless you names are:
Yoda
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Luke Skywalker is not proclaimed a Jedi until the very very end.

 

Want to be technical about arguing Force-users are not Jedi? That's cool. You should remember that Sith are not Jedi either. Of them, you can't be a Sith unless your name is:
Darth Vader
Emperor Palpatine

Being a Jedi is more than just owning a lightsaber. Its a religion. A way of thinking. Because of the Jedi Purge at the hands of Lord Vader, there are 2 Jedi left. That's it. Who is going to be training more? So it makes sense there aren't any others.

"…and now the Jedi are all but extinct" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
"When I am gone, last of the Jedi will you be" - Yoda

 

Now, what about the EU? Ok, what about it? There's a handful of former Jedi and padawans hiding in deep holes and if they start whipping out glowy blades of death and throwing rocks around with their minds, its a sure way to get heavy Imperial notice (the Dark Lord of the Sith kind). They didn't survive 18+ years easily. Most of them even hid or threw away their lightsabers altogether. These people aren't stupid…most PCs are and can't wait to play with their toys.

So here's the deal. Let your players write up all the Jedi they want. The only person stopping them is the GM, since there are more than enough rules in the game to make one. Let them know that once its discovered they are Force-users with laser-swords, all hell is going to break loose, and then proceed to chase them around the galaxy with Darth Vader until he kills each one horribly.

Won't that be fun?

I know what you wrote was a little satirical, but most of my players would absolutely LOVE getting chased around and killed by Darth Vader. For them it would be glorious.

So…I think maybe I will stat up some "Jedi" options for them to play :)



#8 Green Leader

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:54 AM

apollyonbob said:

Although I guess it wouldn't be the first RPG that launched without Jedi at character creation I guess. What was that other Star Wars RPG that was like "Oh Jedi are super powerful and so should be rare."

Sorry man, but they didn't un-include Jedi in Galaxies because they're "super powerful," but because the game was set in an era were there are no* Jedi.

Same as this game. 

 

*okay, very few.



#9 apollyonbob

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:26 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

There is a full chapter on The Force, including a Force-user specialization and access to Force Powers that mirror what we generally see in the movies.  There are stats for a lightsaber (and they're by far the most powerful version of the weapon to date), so you can have you're lightsaber-swinging Force-user…

Well that's good to know. If the lightsaber is incredibly powerful though, is it actually balanced? I mean, the website basically doesn't even mention the possibility of a Force user until the last of those books. So is cross-play something that the game is actually designed for?

To give an example, White Wolf's system could also be considered "integrated" and a Mage, and Werewolf could mechnically be in the same group. However, the Mage would dominate because while it's mechanically possible the games are radically different in terms of scope of power.

If they're going to save Jedi for the end, will a mid-level Jedi and a mid-level bounty hunter have about the same power level?



#10 apollyonbob

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:34 AM

To clarify - I realize that from the descriptions the game might not really have set levels per se. But on the assumption of say, a 52 session campaign, where everyone starts brand new characters at 0 xp, the 25 session mark would be what I'm thinking of when I say "mid level"



#11 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:07 PM

Incidentally, I got the impression that the Third Book (Force of Destiny?) will be about playing the last of the Jedi running around the Empire, so presumably they are not ideologically opposed to people playing Jedi in this period.

It is also probably worth realising that people are not going to shut up about Jedi until they can play one, so it might behove us to make that possible in some form.

Beta rules for Jedi. You know it makes sense.



#12 MILLANDSON

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:47 PM

apollyonbob said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

 

There is a full chapter on The Force, including a Force-user specialization and access to Force Powers that mirror what we generally see in the movies.  There are stats for a lightsaber (and they're by far the most powerful version of the weapon to date), so you can have you're lightsaber-swinging Force-user…

 

Well that's good to know. If the lightsaber is incredibly powerful though, is it actually balanced? I mean, the website basically doesn't even mention the possibility of a Force user until the last of those books. So is cross-play something that the game is actually designed for?

To give an example, White Wolf's system could also be considered "integrated" and a Mage, and Werewolf could mechnically be in the same group. However, the Mage would dominate because while it's mechanically possible the games are radically different in terms of scope of power.

If they're going to save Jedi for the end, will a mid-level Jedi and a mid-level bounty hunter have about the same power level?

No idea, though I'd guess so. I'm sure we'll find out when the 2nd game comes out though.


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#13 cetiken

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:42 PM

apollyonbob said:

 

Well that's good to know. If the lightsaber is incredibly powerful though, is it actually balanced? I mean, the website basically doesn't even mention the possibility of a Force user until the last of those books. So is cross-play something that the game is actually designed for?

To give an example, White Wolf's system could also be considered "integrated" and a Mage, and Werewolf could mechnically be in the same group. However, the Mage would dominate because while it's mechanically possible the games are radically different in terms of scope of power.

If they're going to save Jedi for the end, will a mid-level Jedi and a mid-level bounty hunter have about the same power level?

Do you think a Jedi should be about as powerful as a smuggler?  

Personally I wouldn't think so. 

If FFG was making a Gamist style RPG I'd think so. However in a Naritive style of play it seems less necessary to me. 



#14 Slaunyeh

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 08:42 PM

cetiken said:

Do you think a Jedi should be about as powerful as a smuggler?  

Random Bob the Smuggler? Definitely not. Jedi should (eventually) be much more powerful than an average human being. But then again, so should Han Solo. I don't understand why everyone's obsessed with the idea that Jedi PCs should be larger-than-life heroes and other PCs should just be normal random people. That is not what the Star Wars setting is all about. The protagonists of the story are exceptional beings, jedi or no jedi.

(And on that note, I also don't think PC Jedi should be about as powerful as random Bob the Jedi who's gunned down in an arena on Geonosis or shot in the back by a couple of clone troopers.)



#15 apollyonbob

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:55 PM

cetiken said:

Do you think a Jedi should be about as powerful as a smuggler?  

Personally I wouldn't think so. 

If FFG was making a Gamist style RPG I'd think so. However in a Naritive style of play it seems less necessary to me. 

Yes, I completely understand why Fantasy Flight is doing what they're doing in terms of setting the game in the Rebellion Era. But in making it the most Jedi-restricted era aren't they making it far more difficult to balance for people who want to play the game in a less Jedi-restricted era? Especially since the less Jedi-restricted eras are every other era. The Old Republic, New Republic, Legacy - present in all of those are - well if not Jedi, then lightsaber wielding, robe wearing, Force users at least. And I think there's an expectation is that the party could be mixed. Soldiers, bounty hunters, smugglers, Jedi or some kind of Jedi-equivalent. Especially since that's the case in most of the movies. If they're all low level - they're all low level. Padawans are fine or whatever if they're part of the order. But I mean, at the very least, they gotta start with a lightsaber, right?

I mean, I'm a fan of Star Wars that's looking for a Star Wars RPG that I can play with a group. And so far, the mechanics as described sound pretty cool! But I've barely got the time to make the campaign - I can't spend hours mucking about with the rules because I want to play in literally any era except the Rebellion Era. (Lets just say the planet Hoth has been visited more than once, you know?) I bought every SAGA book for completions sake and almost skipped the Rebellion Era sourcebook because that's how uninterested I am in Rebellion Era.

And hey, I guess it could totally work to just plop them into a different era and have some padawans on the team - but from all the descriptions it's not designed to work that way. And usually when you run games counter to the way the game is designed, things break.

But is that right? Would the game break under that kind of load?



#16 doctorbadwolf

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:16 PM

apollyonbob said:

 

So, if what I'm reading is correct, Edge of the Empire has the Force, and it has the concept of a Force User, but there's basically no concept of a Jedi for character creation, is that right? (Force user and Jedi being not synonymous in the slightest in the Star Wars universe.)

I mean, is Fantasy Flight really going to make a Star Wars RPG that launches with no Jedi in it? That doesn't strike anyone else as … well … maybe not the best choice?

….

Yeah I think that's gonna be hard to sell to my gaming group. For what it's worth, the system sounds really neat mechanically.

 

 

 

I kind of agree. I really think that they should have started with the focus on the Rebellion, and made the second book Edge of The Empire, and included basic Jedi rules in the Rebellion book, while waiting to print detailed Jedi stuff until the Jedi specific book.

 

But, you can still make a jedi in this. He or she just won't be entirely focused on being a jedi. without some houseruling of some kind, which should be very easy in this system.

 

Honestly, giving some skills to the force exile specialty and making it a starting option should be just as easy as making a new race. In other words, damn near trivial.

 

Maybe they should just include quick guidelines for doing that as a kludge for groups that really want to start out with a full Jedi, and a reminder that "real", official jedi rules will come later.

 

Note: I don't think the game will necessarily break if you run things in a different era.

 

I'm already thinking that if the game looks about like it does when it finally ships, I'll be houseruling the price of the Force specialty down to the same cost as a specialty within your carreer. There's no reason to take it if you don't want to play a force user, and I see no reason to try to mechanically discourage force users. DO that with suggestions in the book, and only with suggestions, and let us decide how we want to play the game we're paying you for. I could play a game set in a semi primitive world, or one we know from EU canon didn't suffer force user extermination at the hands of the empire, but for some reason, the game wants to try to force me away from playing a Kilian Ranger, Dathomiri, Jensaari or any other force tradition that wasn't whiped out by the Empire.

 

It's a bit silly.



#17 That Blasted Samophlange

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:26 PM

I've been thinking a bit about how to handle Jedi in the game and how, in other games, they are 'more powerful' than other characters. 

 

The fact is they Aren't more powerful.  What makes it seem that way is that Most Jedi have had their entire lives devoted to training.  A character playing a full fledged Jedi is going to be a higher 'level' than other characters.  So of course they are more powerful.

A Jedi, for the most part, is trained since they are super young.   So a player that makes a brand new character will be the equivalent of a padawan.  They will also be relatively young - and not have a lot of skills.  This is the case for a character starting out Pure Jedi.  Of course, this example is also assuming a Jedi Order still being in existence.  Which, for the time period this game is set in, is not going to be likely. 

Now, playing a full fledged Jedi is what a lot of people want to play.  They want to have the lightsaber swinging action, force powers and all that.  But, and this is only in my experience, most people don't realize what it is to play a Jedi.  This is a religious order, that forces you to follow a certain, very narrow doctrine.  They don't have a lot of gear.  A utility belt and lightsaber is all most get.  Also, you were beholden to the Jedi Council.  You know what that means in Game terms?  You have a Set Obligation:  Jedi Order.   I would expect this to be very high.   To the point that a Jedi in the Party is going to get the rest of the characters into a lot of trouble. 

Now, at the height of the Jedi order, this obligation would be the Jedi Council giving missions, and other tasks.  In the time period that this game is set in, the Obligation is most likely going to be geared to staying alive, and making sure you aren't found out, and secondly, trying to rebuild the Jedi Order.

In either case, I think, that a great way to 'balance' the Jedi to other classes, is to acknowledge that the Jedi we see in the movies, and Clone Wars animated series are characters that have a lot of experience under their belt.   At character creation, a Jedi character would be a padawan, and while having access to force powers, would not have the skill or power levels that a high 'level' character would.  If Obligation is fixed, and a higher rating, this will be balanced by having to have that character make choices.  Do you follow the Jedi Code and reveal yourself to save someone, or do you take the huge penalties for ignoring your obligation and stay hidden? 

 

However, this is all just my opinion, and speculation on my part.   But I truly think that this game will find a way to make Jedi 'balanced' with other characters, if only by making them beholden to their obligation.  Which is a fair trade.


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#18 KommissarK

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:17 AM

apollyonbob said:

Well that's good to know. If the lightsaber is incredibly powerful though, is it actually balanced? I mean, the website basically doesn't even mention the possibility of a Force user until the last of those books. So is cross-play something that the game is actually designed for?

As far as "balance" goes, no, it isn't really balanced. Or rather, it is (being that it effectively costs about 1 million credits with its rarity of 10 and base price of 10,000), so its power/cost ratio is comparable to anything else in this system. What is meaningful though, is that lightsabers are true to the setting. This was a big contention in saga edition where a lightsaber was a glorified glowstick. At least now a lightsaber properly does not apply its wielders strength, and can pretty much slice through anything.

As far as popularity with having no base jedi, I'm quite happy about it. It is treating the setting appropriately. The Force Sensitive Exile specialty is very good at depicting the sort of passive bonuses one has from being aware of the force. The powers are a bit broken right now, but also do an excellent job of showing the effectiveness of the force.

I must say, the worst thing about Star Wars Galaxies to me is when they started making Jedi something "easy" to attain (and by that, I mean when they added any system that gave an indication to players how to do it, like the holocrons). Without the mystery of "how did you get that," it became a far less impressive thing.



#19 selderane

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:40 AM

doctorbadwolf said:

I'm already thinking that if the game looks about like it does when it finally ships, I'll be houseruling the price of the Force specialty down to the same cost as a specialty within your carreer. There's no reason to take it if you don't want to play a force user, and I see no reason to try to mechanically discourage force users. DO that with suggestions in the book, and only with suggestions, and let us decide how we want to play the game we're paying you for. I could play a game set in a semi primitive world, or one we know from EU canon didn't suffer force user extermination at the hands of the empire, but for some reason, the game wants to try to force me away from playing a Kilian Ranger, Dathomiri, Jensaari or any other force tradition that wasn't whiped out by the Empire.

 

It's a bit silly.

It's a bit silly you're demanding a design decision because you think you're handcuffed, but in the same breath you say you're going to houserule it into what you want.

Every design decision is going to produce people who believe their way is best.  That's great.  Houserule it.  The Star Wars police are not in your house.  And if you think they are in your house you should call the real police because you're probably about to be stabbed.

But you immediately lose me when you demand the design team do this one thing, and this one thing only.

Get over yourself.  It's a game.


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#20 $hamrock

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 06:33 AM

apollyonbob said:

 

 

Especially since the less Jedi-restricted eras are every other era.

In true, canon, anything after the purge, and after the movies is pretty short of jedi.  I would imagine there are going to be a rash of untrained force users (even ones of jedi status), but  real jedis… Daddy George never supported anything that is EU and on a number of  interviews has stated that he intended "the force" to die off.

 






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