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Legion Shotguns


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#1 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:53 PM

Do people think there is some kind of mistake in the stat bloc for these guns? If BC used the DH/DW Scatter rules, they would be pretty good, but as is they seem inferior to bolters in all respects except for the +10% to hit at short ranges.

Was the base damage perhaps meant to be 1d10+9? That would make them better than a bolter at short or point-blank range, but worse at long range (and against armoured targets),and so more balancingout. What do you think?



#2 Chastity

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:13 AM

This is something of a philosophical question. If you think that it is a good idea for weapons to be balanced against each other, then by all means up the damage. Personally I assume that Shotguns are *supposed* to be less good than Boltguns. Bolters are supposed to be really, really good after all.

That said, Legion Shotguns *are* a bit pants.



#3 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:23 AM

Well the Forsaken gets a bolt pistol or boltgun and a legion shotgun. The bolt pistol and bolter are better is every way other than the +10% at short range so he might as well throw the shotgun away.



#4 HappyDaze

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:47 PM

bogi_khaosa said:

Well the Forsaken gets a bolt pistol or boltgun and a legion shotgun. The bolt pistol and bolter are better is every way other than the +10% at short range so he might as well throw the shotgun away.

If you're playing a Forsaken to concept, there is the possibility that ammo might be tight. It's should be far easier to get shotgun shells made to order than bolter ammo. Granted, this is very specific to the type of game being run, but if your GM likes to make you scrounge for things, the shotgun is cheap to feed.


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#5 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 02:04 PM

My hunch is that it was supposed to be 1d10+9 before the FFG Uncorrected Typo Gremlin showed up.. That makes it balance much better and is closer to concept -- more damage than a bolter at point-blank range, worse against hard armor and at long range.



#6 Plushy

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:26 PM

Shotguns do have a lot of fun ammo to work with. You can modify them a lot more than you can a las or bolt weapon. That said, I do think the 1d10+9 could be nice.


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#7 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:17 PM

HappyDaze said:

bogi_khaosa said:

 

Well the Forsaken gets a bolt pistol or boltgun and a legion shotgun. The bolt pistol and bolter are better is every way other than the +10% at short range so he might as well throw the shotgun away.

 

 

If you're playing a Forsaken to concept, there is the possibility that ammo might be tight. It's should be far easier to get shotgun shells made to order than bolter ammo. Granted, this is very specific to the type of game being run, but if your GM likes to make you scrounge for things, the shotgun is cheap to feed.

Not really, you'd still have to look for Astartes-caliber shotgun shells. If anything, they'd be even harder to find than bolt shells, since nobody but loyalist Scouts seems to use them. I usually just end up trading my shotgun away for a plasma pistol instead.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#8 Chastity

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 11:02 AM

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Not really, you'd still have to look for Astartes-caliber shotgun shells. If anything, they'd be even harder to find than bolt shells, since nobody but loyalist Scouts seems to use them. I usually just end up trading my shotgun away for a plasma pistol instead.

Game mechanically, Legion Shotguns are one level less rare than Legion Boltguns, and while Legion Shotgun Shells may not be manufactured in quantity, they're presumably much easier to make yourself than boltgun shells.



#9 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:42 AM

 Game mechanically, Legion Plasma guns are one level less rare than Legion Boltguns. Does this mean Legion plasma flasks are easier to acquire or refill than bolts, too?


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#10 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:56 AM

Boss Gitsmasha said:

 Game mechanically, Legion Plasma guns are one level less rare than Legion Boltguns. Does this mean Legion plasma flasks are easier to acquire or refill than bolts, too?

Actually, yes, but for completely different reasons.

Astartes bolter shells are machine-tooled munitions produced in extremely limited quantities by select manufactories under contract from the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Fuel flasks for plasma weapons contain hydrogen, the single most abundant element in the universe. Of course, its refined, and higher grades (such as those used in Astartes plasma weaponry) will likely contain particular isotope mixtures, but it's still hydrogen, and thus infinitely easier to obtain than specially-manufactured solid munitions. The rarity of plasma weaponry is more to do with the difficulty of manufacturing and maintaining the containment systems (flaws in which can result in catastrophic failure) than because of rare ammunition.

Shotgun shells, even Astartes-use ones, are still shotgun shells - metal, casing and propellant. An Astartes one will be a bigger gauge than those used in mortal shotguns, certainly, but the ammunition is still fundamentally far simpler than a bolter shell.


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#11 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 02:23 PM

 And yet it's easier to obtain a Legion plasma gun than a Legion boltgun, despite the difficulty in manufacturing the plasma containment systems. I think there's been a typo.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#12 Space Monkey

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:41 AM

 What about the scene in Aliens where the marines realise they're passing through the nuclear reactor (or what ever it is), so rather than risk using their armour piercing assault rifles, they switch to small arms fire and shot guns. Thus they are less likely to penetrate the walls and vaporise half the planet.

Maybe the shotguns are for such times :)



#13 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 11:40 AM

Space Monkey said:

 

 What about the scene in Aliens where the marines realise they're passing through the nuclear reactor (or what ever it is), so rather than risk using their armour piercing assault rifles, they switch to small arms fire and shot guns. Thus they are less likely to penetrate the walls and vaporise half the planet.

Maybe the shotguns are for such times :)

 

 

You mean the scene where Vasquez deliberately disobeys orders and fires her smartgun anyway, and most of the Marine squad gets horribly killed because they can't use their pulse rifles?


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#14 Cifer

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 03:19 AM

@Boss Gitsmasha

It's established that in most ship-combat engangements, combatants restrict themselves to shotguns and the like for exactly the reason mentioned: you might overpenetrate and hit something both expensive and dangerous (obviously not the outer skin of the vessel - if that can be penetrated by a bolt-shell, you really want to change your shipwright).

That being said, I fully agree with N0-1: An Astartes shotgun is essentially just a very oversized shotgun. Find a gunsmith, explain to him what calibre you'd like and chances are you'll get as many shells as you'd like within a few days - especially with all the mutants running around in the Vortex who can probably use shells of that size anyway.
A bolter shell, on the other hand side, is on a much different level of technology.



#15 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:20 PM

Cifer said:

@Boss Gitsmasha

It's established that in most ship-combat engangements, combatants restrict themselves to shotguns and the like for exactly the reason mentioned: you might overpenetrate and hit something both expensive and dangerous (obviously not the outer skin of the vessel - if that can be penetrated by a bolt-shell, you really want to change your shipwright).

That being said, I fully agree with N0-1: An Astartes shotgun is essentially just a very oversized shotgun. Find a gunsmith, explain to him what calibre you'd like and chances are you'll get as many shells as you'd like within a few days - especially with all the mutants running around in the Vortex who can probably use shells of that size anyway.
A bolter shell, on the other hand side, is on a much different level of technology.

A stray pellet from a spread could also hit something expensive and dangerous, or you could simply miss and hit something expensive and dangerous. The reason troopers use shotguns in ship combat engagements is because they're both cheap and brutally effective at close range. This is the reason that makes most sense to me. Those that can afford better and don't care about collateral damage will pack something bigger.

I concede on the Astartes shotgun shells. It would probably be easier to get shells for the shotgun than bolt shells, which would probably lead to a Forsaken carrying around a bolt pistol but rarely ever firing it, preferring to use his shotgun or chainsword instead. However, Astartes plasma flasks could be refilled by the same fuel that regular plasma flasks use; the difference being that Astartes flasks are bigger and therefore require more fuel to fill up completely. Likely the same case with melta canisters.

 


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#16 Géza!

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:05 AM

Well, shotguns have incendiary shells and all sorts of crazy-ass mumbo jumbo, while bolters don't. I think that's the balancing factor in case of shotguns.

 

Also, the BC scatter rules are wicked good if you mainly use your shotgun at point blank range. That +3 damage makes a difference.



#17 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:55 PM

Géza! said:

 

Also, the BC scatter rules are wicked good if you mainly use your shotgun at point blank range. That +3 damage makes a difference.

 

 

The +3 damage brings it up to the damage of a bolter.

I think the BC Scatter rules are quite less lethal than the other 40KRPG versions.



#18 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:45 PM

'Twould be far better if BC used the Scatter rules of all the other game lines (including Only War, I think?).

 



#19 Géza!

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:10 AM

bogi_khaosa said:

'Twould be far better if BC used the Scatter rules of all the other game lines (including Only War, I think?).

 

 

Only War returning to the classic Scatter rules makes me think that FFG may have deemed the BC variant a "mistake". A bit of a shame, I liked the bonuses to hit, personally.



#20 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:03 PM

 Bolters also have Hellfire shells, silenced shells, fragmentation shells, anti-machine shells, Inferno shells, et cetera. Bolt shells are almost as varied as shotgun shells are.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."





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