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Smuggler should be Scoundrel and vice versa


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#1 Northman

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:37 PM

 This might seem like an odd thing to make a point of, but yet I am. My GM pointed it out to me the other day that he felt the career Smuggler and its specialization Scoundrel should change names. It has bugged me ever since, because I think he's got a point.

I'm not sure what the reasoning is (or whether it has something to do with the swtor distinction), but it just seems to me that reversing the two would be more apropriate. The Scoundrel specialization already feels like it's a smuggler anyway. It also feels more apropriate for a smuggler or thief or even pilot to be primarily also a scoundrel rather than a smuggler. Smuggler is simply what strikes me as a specialization while scoundrel seems to be the broader term. It wouldn't be a whole lot of work to reverse the instances of those words and rephrase the descriptions slightly. Look and feel should be just as important to get right as mechanics. Even though I ran a search for this that came up blank, I can't be the only one thinking this? At the very least some insight into the current naming would be interesting, too.



#2 BrashFink

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:57 PM

I would need Talent and Skill examples from you to see what you are talking about.

To be honest on my first read through I skimmed the skill details and Talent details, figuring I would need to digest these a bit more anyway when I fully understand rest of rules.

Seems to me smuggler will need to be more Ship focused, perhaps some forgery stuff… where the scoundrel will be more lying, cheating and fast talking. I am at work and cannot peek at the rules until later tonight.

 

EDIT: Oh wait… I think it dawned on me what you mean. The CAREER is smuggler… or is Scoundrel? Actually I might agree with you.



#3 Callidon

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 05:11 PM

 I agree!  It's kind of an "all smugglers are scoundrels but not all scoundrels are smugglers" type thing.

Neither Thief nor Pilot pattently require smuggler either.  And scoundrel seems a good basis.


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#4 Librarian

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:26 PM

 the same conversation went on with Star Wars the old republic  they did the same named the basic class smuggler and the specialization within that class scoundrel.

In Tor's case the main reason given was the iconic nature of the word smuggler in star wars even to individuals who are only passingly familiar with the movies. mabye not the best of reasons but to someone who wants to play a han solo character just seeing the name smuggler tells them that this is there class.



#5 Slaunyeh

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:27 PM

Librarian said:

 the same conversation went on with Star Wars the old republic  they did the same named the basic class smuggler and the specialization within that class scoundrel.

In Tor's case the main reason given was the iconic nature of the word smuggler in star wars even to individuals who are only passingly familiar with the movies. mabye not the best of reasons but to someone who wants to play a han solo character just seeing the name smuggler tells them that this is there class.

Well, TOR also had the advantage that they'd already written your character story, so if you picked the smuggler class, you were a smuggler. That helps them get away with stuff like that. It's not that big of a deal in EotE, but I can see the argument for switching the two.



#6 Northman

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:11 PM

BrashFink said:

EDIT: Oh wait… I think it dawned on me what you mean. The CAREER is smuggler… or is Scoundrel? Actually I might agree with you.

That's right. At the moment the career is smuggler and specialization scoundrel.

 

 

Indeed, in TOR the story was pretty much given. In addition I can see the broader need for having a class that's instantly recognizable as the "Han Solo class" as a whole in a video game where you want to get into the action instantly. In a roleplayinggame like this, however, you're able to sift through more information (and usually does) prior to playing. Having a specialization named Smuggler serves the same purpose.

Although it more or less basically boils down to a (sort of) semantic thing in that "all smugglers are scoundrels but not all scoundrels are smugglers," it also seems to me that the Scoundrel specialization has talents closely related to smuggling.

Using Han Solo as the example could obviously lead to the conclusion that he's a Smuggler with the Pilot and possibly Scoundrel specialization. But even though he's archetypical for Star Wars, it doesn't mean that it can solely be based on him. And either way, he is just as likely to be a Scoundrel with the Smuggler and Pilot specializations. After all, he is the one who said "you like me because I'm a scoundrel"…

 

 

 



#7 Callidon

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:05 AM

Maybe they should just go with Rapscallion or Nere-do-Well as a base career :-)


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#8 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:36 AM

Callidon said:

Maybe they should just go with Rapscallion or Nere-do-Well as a base career :-)

Maybe.

Looking at the Scoundrel tree, it does seem to be a mix of your classic "smuggler" in the way of someone that sneaks goods past customs and deals in the black market.  There's not much in the way of flying, an aspect that is tied to the "smuggler" notion in Star Wars thanks to Han Solo.

I'm actually okay with the names being what they currently are, as a "smuggler" can cover a broad number of things just as easily as "scoundrel" could, with the latter also a possibility to be used for any of the characters as they operate outside (or just in sheer defiance) of Imperial Law.

 


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#9 Quicksilver

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:42 AM

I think it's really fine both ways, but right now the specializations seem to be "all the things to be a good…" So to be a successful smuggling group, you would need a pilot to fly the ship, a scoundrel to sell the goods, and a thief to get them in and out of a port.  On the other hand, it makes sense the other way to, though arguably there's no reason why pilots are scoundrels, any more then them all being smugglers.


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#10 BrashFink

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:58 AM

Callidon said:

Maybe they should just go with Rapscallion

HAHA Awesome. This word is not used in everyday vernacular nearly enough imo… that and the word "swindle". lol

Yeah I rechecked this all out this morning. Very odd that the chose Smuggler as the master class. Smuggler: Thief? That is just odd… I mean if you want to play an out and out criminal thief, why the hell would you have to be a smugger?

I guess it is just semantics, I mean since you get to choose your class skills, you could easily make a Smuggler: Thief that has nothing to do with Piloting a ship. Just the naming is a bit silly.



#11 Quicksilver

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 07:07 AM

Perhaps "Opportunist" would be a more accurate and legaly neutral discription.  It's actualy difficult to come up with a place other then Smuggling where Pilots and Theives come togeather.


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#12 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:30 AM

Quicksilver said:

Perhaps "Opportunist" would be a more accurate and legaly neutral discription.  It's actualy difficult to come up with a place other then Smuggling where Pilots and Theives come togeather.

Actually, that might work.  Use Scoundrel as the career name, and Opportunist for the talent tree that used to be named Scoundrel.

It's a thought.


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#13 Cyril

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:49 AM

How's about "Scruffy Lookin' Nerf Herder" for the base career?

In all honesty, I can see the point, but it's not one that's really bugged me in my time with the book. Smuggler is a very iconic word within the Star Wars milieu, and people are going to see and instantly identify with it - same as they are with Bounty Hunter (which has always, always been an advanced or prestige class in all but the WEG version of previous iterations). 

Just my two creds.



#14 lupex

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:27 PM

Quicksilver said:

Perhaps "Opportunist" would be a more accurate and legaly neutral discription.  It's actualy difficult to come up with a place other then Smuggling where Pilots and Theives come togeather.

I am liking this.

 

It would also leave things open for a pilot career, that could include specializations for - tramp freighter captain, hotshot, and speeder jocky?


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#15 BrashFink

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:13 PM

I would prefer it to be Scoundrel: Scamp, or perhaps Scoundrel: Con Artist… or even just the simple Scoundrel: Rogue.



#16 Timberboar

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 09:57 AM

Smuggler ought to be a subset of Scoundrel, IMO.

 

Now then, where do we vote?



#17 Callidon

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 10:45 AM

Timberboar said:

Now then, where do we vote?

I have a couple felt tip pens and a stack of post-its.  There's a phone booth near my office we could use for a voting booth.


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#18 Timberboar

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 10:47 AM

Callidon said:

Timberboar said:

 

Now then, where do we vote?

 

I have a couple felt tip pens and a stack of post-its.  There's a phone booth near my office we could use for a voting booth.

 

Sounds good.  We just have to make sure no one does any campaigning within 100 yards of the phone booth.

Wait… phone booths are still a thing?






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