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LOS and Cover through building windows and far away objects


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#1 536RodneySmith

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:40 AM

I was playing my first game of Dust Warfare and I feel like i know how the rules are supposed to work, but there was a couple of times it didn't always feel right, and I wanted to clarify.  Here are a couple of examples:

* I have a sniper in a window and he's shooting through the window at a unit that is standing in an open field.

* I have a walker 12 inches away from a unit of soldiers and both are standing in an open field, except that exactly 6 inches between the walker and the unit is an inch wall that tyically provides hard cover.

Following cover rules I would draw line of sight from the leader in the unit (the Sniper and Walker in these examples), to each model in the target unit.  In both cases I am going to cross some form of cover. In the first example, from my Sniper I am going to cross (almost immediately) the wall of the building I am standing a quarter inch from.  For the second example, I am crossing a wall, even though the target unit isn't anywhere near said wall.

In both cases, do the targets recieve benefit of cover?

Accroding to the rules, it would seem like they do, since we cross a change in terrain (walls, in this case), and I can rationalize it based on streamlining the cover system and techically, I suppose both could provide "some" off-chance form of cover for the targets realistically, but it felt a little funny.

Just hoping someone can confirm this is how it works, or that I am missing something obvious.

Thanks!



#2 felkor

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:10 AM

Yes, they both provide cover.

However, if you moved your sniper just that quarter inch forward so it was touching the wall/window, then it wouldn't provide cover anymore.  It's always good to make sure your unit leader is touching any terrain that he is close to.

Also, terrain rules can pretty much be whatever you want as long as all parties agree.  Last week I played a game where we both agreed that the ponds provided cover if you were in them, but not if you drew LOS across them.  And that's perfectly fine too.



#3 536RodneySmith

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:55 AM

felkor said:

 

Yes, they both provide cover.

However, if you moved your sniper just that quarter inch forward so it was touching the wall/window, then it wouldn't provide cover anymore.  It's always good to make sure your unit leader is touching any terrain that he is close to.

Also, terrain rules can pretty much be whatever you want as long as all parties agree.  Last week I played a game where we both agreed that the ponds provided cover if you were in them, but not if you drew LOS across them.  And that's perfectly fine too.

 

 

Of for sure, I can see us house ruling a couple things.  Just want clarification on the official rules.

I'm going to have to skim through the rules again, I'm not clear on how touching the wall would remove the wall as cover.  I get if you're touching the wall, but the LOS touchings your base before it tocuhes the wall, than the wall does nothing….



#4 felkor

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:11 AM

536RodneySmith said:

I'm going to have to skim through the rules again, I'm not clear on how touching the wall would remove the wall as cover.  I get if you're touching the wall, but the LOS touchings your base before it tocuhes the wall, than the wall does nothing….



In your example, the sniper is shooting through the window, so the LOS would go through the wall (that the window is in) before touching the base.

I don't know the specific page number, but the rules do say that if the unit leader of the attacking unit is touching terrain, that it is considered to be open terrain for purposes of obscuring LOS (and therefore determining cover.) 



#5 Major Mishap

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:53 AM

 The rules are a bit of a mish-mash concerning cover, they don't know what they want to be WYSIWYG or general area terrain.  My advice would be to play each of your terrain pieces how you think they should work.



#6 Duckshirt

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:54 PM

 

 

Let's use a different miniature example since the sniper's going to ignore armor and cover anyway. Let's say it's just a dude pointing a laser out the window :)

Page 41:

Players draw an imaginary line between the center of the attacking Unit Leader’s base and the center of each miniature’s base in the target unit. If the line crosses any terrain area at all, then the target miniature is obscured (even if it is already blocked). This area of terrain does not have to be taller than either unit, the line simply has to pass through any area of terrain to be obscured. If at least half of the miniatures in the unit are obscured, then the unit is considered to be obscured and the unit will gain the benefits of the the terrain’s cover type.

A Unit Leader that has its base touching or within an area of terrain ignores that terrain for the purposes of obscured line of sight, but not blocked line of sight. The unit treats the area as open terrain. This includes terrain that both the target and the attacker are within.



#7 Seblys

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 03:28 PM

I would have said that in the sniper example the enemy unit wouldn't receive cover as the sniper is firing from area terrain but in the walker example the enemy unit would receive cover :)



#8 felkor

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 04:22 PM

Seblys said:

I would have said that in the sniper example the enemy unit wouldn't receive cover as the sniper is firing from area terrain but in the walker example the enemy unit would receive cover :)

 

Walls aren't generally considered "area terrain" - at least the rulebook gives an example where they are not.  Although I suppose one could argue that in a building, you're in it.  Again, something to agree upon with your opponent before you begin the game.  The rulebook gives some hints on how to do terrain, but makes it clear that you can do whatever you think makes sense.



#9 Seblys

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:16 AM

I just figured the OP was saying the sniper was in a building since he said he was shooting out a window. It would be a sad window if it wasn't attached to a building anymore :(



#10 felkor

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:44 AM

Seblys said:

I just figured the OP was saying the sniper was in a building since he said he was shooting out a window. It would be a sad window if it wasn't attached to a building anymore :(

 

Yes,  in my games I just don't consider being in a building by itself gives you any cover.  You need to have a wall in the way to get cover, so then the whole whether you're touching it or not thing starts to matter.



#11 Foolish Frost

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:51 AM

I go from dust tactics, and extrapolate:

  • If a figure is inside the building base it has soft cover.  If the building is missing walls, then draw a line between the ends of the walls still standing, and consider that the building area.  This counts even when two opposing units are in the same building, and represents interior walls and furnishing being used as cover. (Obscured)
  • If a figure is partially inside the building, such as at the corner of the building looking around a wall, they get soft cover. (Obscured)
  • If a figure INSIDE the building has a wall with an opening (window or door) between them and someone attacking them, then they get hard cover. (Obscured)
  • If a figure has a solid wall between them and an attacker, then they are Blocked from LOS and have hard cover. (Blocked)
  • In order to clear LOS on a unit outside the building, an attacking unit must be directly in front of a doorway, window, or open wall.  If inside the building, but further than 2" from the opening, then anyone they have LOS on outside the building gets soft cover (all those pesky interior walls work both ways, ya'know?)
  • You cannot see THROUGH a building.  You cannot have LOS though a window of a building, and out the open back wall to see a unit 15 more inches away.  (did I mention all those silly walls you tend to have inside buildings?)

EXAMPLES:

  • A squad on the inside doorway of a building would get hard cover, and has clear LOS on all targets outside that doorway.  Normally, there is only enough room for a single squad around any single window or door.
  • Two opposing squads in a building shooting at each other would both get soft cover.
  • Two figures with a building between them, and neither inside the building.  They do not have LOS on each other, and are blocked.
  • A sniper in the middle of a building shoots through a window more than 2" away.  Due to the sniper's special ability, the defending unit does not get cover.
  • A normal unit in the middle of a building shoots through a window more than 2" away.  The defender gets soft cover.
  •  

Maybe it's too complex, but we like it.

Does lead to snipers getting grenades lobbed in the window they're shooting out of, though…



#12 GamerDroid

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:23 AM

I agree with the above discussion of the sniper, if he is touching the wall he ignores that terrain piece (I'd probably give my opponent that 1/4" anyway, close enough for me).

 

536RodneySmith said:

* I have a walker 12 inches away from a unit of soldiers and both are standing in an open field, except that exactly 6 inches between the walker and the unit is an inch wall that tyically provides hard cover.

I follow the 'agree with your opponent' principle on walls. I have some low walls that are great for infantry but look ridiculous giving a 3" tall massive walker Hard Cover so we tend to rule these walls are Hard Cover for infantry and no cover for walkers and have no movement penalty. Larger walls that obscure an infantry model give our walkers Hard Cover as we can imagine that being on legs the walkers can squat down when they need to.

So the above case is or isn't cover depending on how we've defined the wall. As mentioned in the book it is worth taking a few seconds to clarify what each bit of terrain is before starting the game.



#13 Maverickg

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:21 PM

Please note I did not read the replies to this post, but am answering the post directly.

 

1.  Snipers ingore cover if they have line of sight.  (that one was easy)  But say it was another unit IN the building.  Because the unit occupies the cover (if it has line of sight) it ignores the cover when firing through.

2.  The mech shooting through terrain would give the target cover.

When considering cover there are a few things to consider.  Please note in the core book you will find this information under "obscured" line of sight.

a.  Is the attacking unit leader in base contact with or in the terrain.  If yes, ignore no cover.

b.  Does the terrain "obscure" line of sight from attacking unit leader to more than half of the target unit's models.  If yes, then cover applies.

c.  Line of sight only has to pass over terrain, the area of terrain does not need to be taller than either unit.



#14 Maverickg

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 03:01 AM

Maverickg said:

a.  Is the attacking unit leader in base contact with or in the terrain.  If yes, ignore no cover.

*Edit:  If yes, then ignore the terrain, no cover.



#15 Azirithdorr

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:05 PM

Hi all,

 

I know this topic is starting to stale a bit with time, but I'd like to get one clarification too:

 

The rule about "Line of sight only has to pass over terrain, the area of terrain does not need to be taller than either unit." messes with me a bit. Let's use another example: Say I have a regular trooper of some sort on the second story of a building around 3" up ( no walls left - he's just standing at the edge of the building ). His target is around 11" away and in the open. Between them, about 1" from the building is a single 1" tall wall. Going from what I read out of the rule above, that wall, even though it's no-where near intersecting a line drawn between the two minis because it's so short, would still provide cover because 'the area of terrian does not need to be taller than either unit'. Does that then indicate that, for determining cover, terrain is basically infinitely tall, or am I misinterpreting and the line still has to pass through the actual terrain for it to count?

 

Thanks everyone!

 






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