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Accurate weapons far too good.


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#1 Felenis

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 01:44 PM

 So, in a recent game I was part of, we were investigating the kidnapping of a Bishop. along the way, the party was split, and the level 2 Assassin, and Level 4 Psyker ended up meeting the future big bad of the campaign, a Daemonhost. The Daemon was going to smack them around a bit, and then jet off, because hey, it would be sorta dickish to unleash a Daemonhost on 2 players that were just investigating. The assassin play, on his first ever session is jokingly told by us to Aim and shoot his Hunting rifle at the daemon. He ends up with +40 to hit, and getting both bonus dice, smashes a huge chunk of health out of it. The daemon cackles at them, and grows wings, and leaps out the window to begin his plans. We all jokingly tell the Assassin to shoot it again, so he runs to the window, spend two half actions aiming, and shoots the daemon as its almost 50 meters away. Again, he gets huge bonuses. +20 for short range, +20 for aiming ,and +10 for accurate, and he gets off all bonus dice again. Two are a righteous, and the daemon is crumped in the ass for 37 wounds, killing it instantly. 

Now, this seems a bit utterly ridiculous. The Level 2 Feral world assassin, with his starting weapon, can crush the most dangerous enemy in the core book with 2 shots of his starting weapon. I vastly prefer the rules before the errata where it just adds a bonus to aim actions, and I think that the errata benefit should become a talent or something instead for high level players. It works fine in Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch, where monstrously powerful creatures are the norm, and accurate offers a nice counter to powerful full auto weapons. But in Dark Heresy it seems like the man with the Hunting rifle is king. Even in close quarters, as long as he has someone to distract his targets for a moment.

Does anyone house rule this? Or is it considered balanced and I'm just not seeing?



#2 Phi6891

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:22 PM

What can I say it seems like he got really lucky, maybe the demonhost should've had "Catch Projectile" as one of his psyker powers to prevent that from happening.  And yes Accurate weapons are amazing, so you have to have something that take it on like the catch projectile power, a really good dodge skill, regeneration in play, stuff like that.



#3 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 03:58 PM

What other effects were in play? Did the Acolytes pass any required Fear Checks? The Daemonhost couldn’t Dodge?

 

Plus Accurate weapons need to be good otherwise they lose out horribly to multi-shot weapons. Why take a Hunting Rifle when I can hit you 5-7 times with an Autogun?
 


 

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Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#4 Droma

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:22 PM

Agreed with HBMC, I'm not sure why the deamonhost didn't dodge. Not to mention if he didn't want it dying he should have just had the damn thing teleport/fly away via narrative or fudge the amount of wounds it had.



#5 Darth Smeg

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:34 PM

I'll add 2 minor details here, as the most important hints have been covered already. Then I'll ramble a bit :)

When weapons with multiple dice roll multiple 10s, you still only get 1 additional die for Righteous fury. The more dice, the larger chance to score RF, but you still only confirm once, and add 1 die.

Secondly, if the deamonhost was flying away and taking no other actions then moving, he would be Running (even though he was flying). This would incur a -20 penalty to your assassins shot.

Ramble mode on.

Remember to play your baddies as intelligently as you would your own character. You do not stroll away from armed hostiles, in the open without cover. You Run, you make Tactical Advances (or retreats) by moving from cover to cover, you go for weak spots, you take out the dangers first, etc.

In hindsight (which is always 20/20), once the Daemonhost realized the assassin could really hurt it, he should have taken immediate steps to neutralize him. Weapon Jinx on the rifle, some nasty WP-to-Resist power (Feral Assassins don't have the WP. Go Dominate), etc.

A daemon (or sorceror, or Psycher) with the right powers played smartly can play hell with the party. Don't let them go head-on with the players, they regularly survive the unbelievable (thanks to FPs and PC luck) and dish out atrocious damage (as you have noticed). Here are some ideas.

Let first contact be via a proxy. Let the daemon possess some poor expendable sod to taunt the PCs. Have them blow the poor sod apart only to realize they haven't touched the real deal. Or via holo-comms or something. In fact, rigging the expendable, possessed "ambassador" with lots of explosives, and blowing the acolytes up from afar can be fun :)

When closer, use powers that hinder the acolytes from shooting. Distort Vision, See Me Not, Catch Projectiles. Then hit the Guard or Assassin with Dominate, and have him fight the party. Nothing causes more joy than the feral guardsman with an Eviscerator who turns on his Psycher-buddy and cuts of his legs.

Oh, and remember that Deamonhosts cause Fear. They have Fear rating 4, in fact, which means that the WP tests to resist are at a -30 penalty. Did you remember to enforce this on your party? Even strong willed characters with a WP in the 50ies and with a suitable Resistance Talent will fail this test 2 out of 3 times!


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#6 Gregorius21778

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 08:24 PM

Felenis said:


Does anyone house rule this? Or is it considered balanced and I'm just not seeing?



The later. Besides the points anyone else already brought up "sniping" is supposed to kill people. That aside, the problem really is with the daemonhost. In 40K, their is a huge difference between how things are described in the fluff nad how things work out mechnically. This started in the tabeltop game (I remember the description of 3rd edition  eldar weapons to tear through stuff like nothing but lacking any Pen) and goes over into this games.

Fact is, regular daemonhosts are anything but the mean machines that take scores of shots and laugh about it. I once tried to pull the same off and good my pretty little daemonhost torn appart by Bolter fire.

The rest has already been said by the rest, so have a nice day :)



#7 Bassemandrh

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:40 AM

In my experiance the nasty mosnter in DH seem to be far tougher and harder to kill than most of the other games when you compare PC strength. Except maybe DW, but that game seems weird.



#8 Zakalwe

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:52 AM

My Assassin has done really well with his hunting rifle.  But once the Arbitrator got a storm bolter it paled into insignificance.

With respect to your big bad, naturally GM fiat allows the BBG to burn a fate point to survive.

Interrogator Z



#9 Magos Seqvirin

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 01:13 AM

 A lot of responses cover what I intended to write on the subject (mostly about how it's up to the GM to keep his Big Bad Boys alive and relatively intact for them to be able to act as recurring villains), but there's one thing I didn't quite see being mentioned and will help make this "defeat" not look like an accidental overkill. Daemons are eternal, even though their bodies are destroyed, their essence returns to the Immaterium where they lick their wounds and plan further mischief. Thus, even if the daemonhost is killed in the action, it may easily (massive understatement) return later to continue its diabolical plans. Maybe it has a super secret sect out there that makes sure that the daemon always has a dozen hosts ready to receive it. (It's basicly a variant on the whole "GM burns daemonhost's Fate Point to let it survive" scenario.)

Just an example, we have played the IH story and my Tech-Priest managed to be one who successfully banished the Crowfather. So now every once in a while, one of his cultists shows up to take revenge or unsanctioned psyker gets possessed by Crowfather's daemon lackey. (And the saga continues this Sunday, as Magos Seqvirin and his band of delinquents … ahem … acolytes struggle against a Daemonhost of great power and no sense of humour.)



#10 Adeptus-B

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:49 AM

I'll add my voice to those in favor of the revised Accuracy rules. Without them, 'sniping' is not a viable tactic. My party features an Assassin (just turned Rank 7) with a high-end rifle (patterned after the Beast House Beastslaver's rifle from Desciples of the Dark Gods, but without the Explosive trait), lovingly refered to as a 'grox rifle', combined with most of the sniper-focused Talents. With the level of adversaries the party now faces, it still usually takes a couple hits to put down mid-tier baddies. With Righteous Fury, she occasionally drops a main villian quicker than I would have prefered, but those instances are outweighed by the number of instances when the party would likely have been wiped out were it not for her ability to inflict heavy damage.



#11 Thaddux

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 01:19 PM

I have similar issues with the sniper in my game, you just have to tailor your enemies.  In fact, Theodosia, from the Joyous Choir adventure gave him something of a complex by consistently dodging his shots.

If you find that the 'big gun' characters are stealing the limelight by becoming unstoppable killing machines:

- remember to use cover, which can add enough AP to negate an attack,

-try adding in the odd force-field, but remember that they're all incredibly rare, and that your players are liable to loot them if you're not careful,

-it's already been said, but high dodge.  Opponents can be savvy enough to save them for the sniper.  Also, step aside,

-Run.  Running imposes a -20 penalty to BS tests against you.  Hard target adds another -20.

-Suppressive fire reduces the sniper to half actions per turn.  One shot every three rounds is less appealing.



#12 Thebigjul

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 12:12 AM

Your Deamon host has no force field from magical origin like PR x 10 rate with no overload?

Can he not "phase" ( really not sure this word exist but like) being just visible but incorporeal? Or any kind of  "holo" power making the shooter have his aim on a mere reflect?

Does he not have a regenaration power? To use between the shoots?

Has he not talent making him harder to shoot at?

Does he not have a deamon talent making attack from unholly weapon to do at best 1 damage point?

As said before your player had been resistant to his fear rating and deamon presence?

Really kill a deamon host even as a SM in deathwatch isn't that easy, I've got the feeling you forget to use the NPC talent and skill without speaking about psy powers.



#13 Thebigjul

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 12:20 AM

Sry I forget something.

In your example the assassin take a whole turn to aim at the deamon host what have he done during this time?

Nothing?

No spell casting?

No evasive manoeuver making his body disapear into industrial fog?

Quite strange…

If your player are messing with high power being don't be afraid to make them pay for their arrogance and lack of planning.

Because attacking a deamon host with for the weakest of them like a psy rating of 5 is quite dangerous for anybody.



#14 Kiton

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 07:52 AM

  While less limited than in BC onwards [where the extra dice, even though it no longer even causes extra damage, cannot inflict RF, and plenty of "accurate" guns don't get the damage bonus anymore; boooo], there's several holes in weapons depending on their "accurate" bonuses.

 First, no matter what, its a single shot. Even if you snipe the guy by 8 DoS, it doesn't matter, he just needs to pass. PCs, and most major NPCs are unlikely to have at least a 40% chance to get out of the way, unless you surprise them.

 Forcefields are a stacking defense there too: you only need to block one shot, no matter how good its bonus damage is.

 Plus, its not a reliable way to get your damage out. Plenty of weapons will give you comparable damage on a hit as a Long-Las or Reaver would with two degrees of success, often with more penetration [but also often with a bit less range unless you take a heavy weapon]. One party I know passes a Single-Shot/Suspensors Autocannon between the two SP users for sniping duty; its a far, far superior weapon for the job than most, and would remain so even with the DH version of the Accurate damage bonuses. A "Heavy Weapons Guy" will be putting in roughly similar training and acquisitions to get a big rifle of a "different category", and does the sniper role just as well if not much better.



#15 Cymbel

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:36 PM

2 Quick Accurate OVERDAMAGE fixes (choose one)

1. To get the accurate damage, you need to use a called shot. The average citizen can try to snipe, but a trained marksman is superior at sniping and has better focus (My favorite)

2. Per Half Action of aiming you get +1d10 to a max of +2d10, given with the 2 DoS as normal. So a sniper firing every turn takes a hit in damage.



#16 breez

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:28 PM

Felenis said:

 So, in a recent game I was part of, we were investigating the kidnapping of a Bishop. along the way, the party was split, and the level 2 Assassin, and Level 4 Psyker ended up meeting the future big bad of the campaign, a Daemonhost. The Daemon was going to smack them around a bit, and then jet off, because hey, it would be sorta dickish to unleash a Daemonhost on 2 players that were just investigating. The assassin play, on his first ever session is jokingly told by us to Aim and shoot his Hunting rifle at the daemon. He ends up with +40 to hit, and getting both bonus dice, smashes a huge chunk of health out of it. The daemon cackles at them, and grows wings, and leaps out the window to begin his plans. We all jokingly tell the Assassin to shoot it again, so he runs to the window, spend two half actions aiming, and shoots the daemon as its almost 50 meters away. Again, he gets huge bonuses. +20 for short range, +20 for aiming ,and +10 for accurate, and he gets off all bonus dice again. Two are a righteous, and the daemon is crumped in the ass for 37 wounds, killing it instantly.

Did you apply the fear test?  A Daemonhost has fear 4, so -30 to the fear test. Each Degree of failure adds +10 to the shock table.

In one of my sessions, the players plus 40 armed guards encountered a daemonhost and every npc was reduced to an inactive screaming mess.


As for aim/accurte, it can do a lot of damage, but in my experience our assasin has very high initiative, always goes first and the targets tend to dodge a lot.



#17 Skeletor

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:33 AM

Don't forget that raw, a lucky string of Righteous Fury could cause a thrown stone to slay a demonhost. Unlikely, but as long as you keep rolling those 10s it could happen.



#18 Felenis

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:51 AM

 Alright, it seems I was wrong to think that Accurate is broken, ha ha

In response to a few queries, 

Yeah the assassin failed his test, but he only rolled 21-40 on the shock table and immediately snapped out of it on his turn.

The daemon tried dodging, but was unable too. And I was just a player, so I don't know what the GM had on it, or whether it is really dead. Yeah, it probably should have turned around and turned the Psyker to mush, but it was his first game ever, so I think the GM was being a bit easy. No more after that.

Finally, where does it say that multiple dice attacks can only trigger 1 righteous fury? The rules in the book don't seem to indicate this.

I still think they should be a bit more expensive or hard to obtain though. Why bother with a Lasgun or a Lascarbine when you can have the Glorious Long Las for only a few thrones more? After that little Daemonhost adventure, everyone is now eager to get their hands on an Accurate gun
When I GM I think I'll make em a little harder to get.



#19 Skeletor

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:06 AM

Other than on demonic targets (or targets with high toughness values), cheap and easy auto-guns and auto-pistols with semi and full auto are probably going to provide higher damage thresholds and a higher average damage as a result. Not to mention the much more flexible and devastating ammo choices (man stopper, Dum Dum, etc)

I don't know if it's an optional rule or if it's in the book but I thought I remembered reading that if you kill a target and still have additional shots left you can pull them to the near by target (take this with a grain of salt since I can't say for certain)



#20 Felenis

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:16 AM

 You can allocate full auto and semi auto shots before doing damage on them to other targets within a certain number of meters from the first target






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