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#1 Kouteki

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:29 PM

We've just got the expansion, and immediately more than a few questions sparked debate:

  1. When do mercenaries desert?

Scenario A: All plastic ships in a defeneding fleet are destroyed in a combat round, with a merc as a sole survivor. Do we go through another round of combat or does the merc effectively surrender?

Scenario B: Merc and a cruiser guard an empty system. Another player invades it with his fleet, but first takes out the cruiser with PDS fire. Does the merc stick around for the space battle?

  1. Can a player choose not to send a representative? I.E. Yin has 2 councilors and a spy - he is effectively a sitting duck for every assassin that gets to resolve his representative before Yin.
  2. Does L1Z1X racial tech Inheritance System allow him to pick any tech, or does it jut allow to skip one step in the tech tree? Does he get to buy War Sun tech right off the bat (skipping Sarween Tools and DSC)?  Can he buy X-89 right away?
  3. Can a merc move on his own? One of the mercs has the ability to pass through enemy controlled systems. Lets say he is stranded on a blockaded planet. His emplyer activates an adjacent system to which he moves his ships. Can this merc take off and go there to meet the employer's fleet?

There are more questions that I cannot recall ATM, but will post them as they come along.

 



#2 TheChris01

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 04:32 AM

 

1 and 4:  I thought that one you hired a Mercenary they acted like one of your regular units. You can move Mercenary units, and engage in battle with them, either alone or with other units. Mercenaries are not like Shock Troops and they don't require a "chaperone" unit to accompany them at all times. When the Trade III Strategy card is activated then, and only then, all players must pay (discard) one trade good for each mercenary they control, or else they must discard the mercenary. As far as I know this is the only time a Mercenary unit would be discarded, as opposed to killed in battle or something.

 

2:  No, I don't think so. The rules are worded that you MUST select a representative. If you cant, like if all your representatives are dead, then you don't get to vote.

 

3:  That's a good question, I don't know.



#3 Fnoffen

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:08 AM

3: If I'm not mistaken the tech card states that you may ignore ONE of the desired techs prerequisites. If the desired tech has two prerequisites and you fulfill neither then you will have to research something else I'm afraid.


Pax Magnifica Bellum Gloriosum


#4 TheChris01

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:16 PM

Well the exact wording is "… to ignore the Technology's prerequisites." and that seems like a plural to me.

Therefore, I would assume that once you have the Inheritance Systems in play you could research anything you want on the tech tree for only +2 resources.

Although that does seem a bit overpowered, I haven't seen any rulings or clarifications that says otherwise.
 



#5 Fnoffen

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:29 AM

True. But doing so would probably paint a bullseye on them.


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#6 Shadow

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 01:45 AM

L1Z1x Racial Tech 2: Inheritance Systems (5)    When researching Technology using the Technology Strategy Card, you may spend two additional resources to ignore one of the Technology’s prerequisites.

Action card …Focused Research- Before purchasing tech that requires 1 tech you don't possess.    Spend 6 resources to ignore 1 prequisite in tech tree

1.  This racial tech seems very similar to this action card…..

 

2.  If the arguement is that L1Z1x can bypass all prerequites, then you can argue that L1Z1x must "possess" the Technology Strategy Card to do this.

Since L1Z1x probably will only get the Tech strategy card 2 or 3 times in the game, then this racial tech is not overpowered.

 

I think the proper interpretation is L1Z1x Racial tech is just a slightly different version of the action card  "Focused Research". 

So L1Z1x could Ignore needing "Antimass deflectors" to get "XRD".

 

The question is…… can L1Z1x  get "Type IV drive" if he has "Neural motivators"  and Ignore the prerequisite "XRD"?

Or does L1Z1x still need "Antimass Deflectors" and can ignore the prerequisite "XRD?

 

I guess that would be answered on how players do it when using the "Focused Research action card"

Ignore the entire branch or just 1 tech in the branch?

 

 

 

 



#7 marecagiva@gmail.com

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 03:29 AM

Guys you all get this wrong. YES YOU CAN "IGNORE" any tech prerequisiteS ! Witch means is that u can,at additional cost of 2 resources,buy ANY TECH IN THE TECHNOLOGY DECK.

It may sound OP race tech,but if you don't get this tech in first 2 turns….later is a waste of Strategy Card,Resources,and your overall strategy for that turn (believe me,i tried to get this tech later in game…never payed off). And 1 more thing…it's not "like" Focused Research…it's much better :)

So guys… now enjoy in playing L1Z1X knowing that any tech in Technology Deck is in your grasp :)

Have fun!



#8 TheChris01

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 01:52 PM

The INHERITANCE SYSTEMS card doesn't say only when using the Primary ability of the strategy card. Therefore I would assume you could use this ability even if you use the Secondary ability. So you don't have to take the technology card because as long as someone takes it you can also use it.

 

Also, my friend bought his copy of the base game when it was first released, and all his race sheet list the PDS cost at 1. However, the official errata states that as an error and the true cost should be 2. This year I bought my own copy of the base game and all my race sheets all have the correct PDS cost of 2. I suppose the mistake had been corrected when they re-printed the game.

 

Now my copy of Shards of the Throne INHERITANCE SYSTEMS card says: "When researching Technology using the Trade Strategy Card, you … " However the errata in the FAQ says this should not be "Trade Strategy", rather it should be "Technology Strategy".

 

So my questions is: Does your copy of the INHERITANCE SYSTEMS card actually say Trade or Technology Strategy card? Have they corrected the errors in a later re-print of Shards of the Throne?
 



#9 Aeonim

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 04:45 AM

The current FAQ (2-5) clarifies the Action Card "Focused Research" as just helping you to "skip" a Technology in the Tech Tree.

 

For example you have Enviro Compensator, you can now skip Stasis Capsules to get Neural Motivator.

Or you could skip and AND-connection.

Though it does not clarify if it's just one missing Tech in the AND-connection it allows.

 

For example: Can you still get War Suns if you just researched the Red Techs, but none of the Yellows?

Do you need at least Enviro Compensator to skip Sarween Tools?

 

---

"Inheritance Systems" is not (yet?) clarified, just it's wording regarding the Strategy Card was corrected.

Normally, I'd guess it's wording allows you to purchase any Tech in the Tech Tree. But then, Focused Research's wording is as unclear regarding it's effect.

I'd suggest a new wording in the next reprint.

 

I'm also unsure about IS being overpowered by opening up the whole Tree. L1Z1X is a strong race that already starts with a lot of Techs and a ressource-rich planet. Yet to take the extra-cost really only makes sense at the start of the game. After all, it's expensive, it stays extra-expensive, and you lose one step to by a "normal" Technology. The first time you research it, it does nothing but paint a big target on you.

 

My question would be: How does Neural Computing interact with IS? Does it reduce the extra cost? Do planets with research bonus reduce the extra cost? What if the LAW has been passed that all research bonuses become one general? (and, since there are yellow ones now, do these receive the all-bonus too?)

 



#10 mulder

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:53 AM

Aeonim said:

For example: Can you still get War Suns if you just researched the Red Techs, but none of the Yellows?

Focused Research says "Spend six resources to ignore one prerequisite Technology requirement in the tech tree."

The important part is "in the tech tree." Because the FAQ says: "Focused Research allows you to ignore one prerequisite on the tech tree. Thus, you could not use this card to purchase Advanced Fighters as your first technology."

 

This means that you always have to think of a prerequisite in the tech tree when using this action card. Let's take your example with the War Sun technology. The card says: "Requires: Deep Space Cannon AND Sarween Tools."

If you think of the tech tree the War Sun technology requires following technologies: Hylar V Assault Laser -> Deep Space Cannon AND Enviro Compensator -> Sarween Tools.

With the action card Focused Research you are allowed to "ignore one prerequisite on the tech tree." So you have to already own either: Hylar V Assault Laser, Deep Space Cannon and Envire Compensator or Hylar V Assault Laser, Enviro Compensator and Sarween Tools to research the War Sun technology with the action card Focused Research because this action card says "on the tech tree."

 

Aeonim said:

"Inheritance Systems" is not (yet?) clarified, just it's wording regarding the Strategy Card was corrected.

The Inheritace Systems card says (clarified by the FAQ): "When researching Technology using the Technology Strategy Card, you may spend 2 additional resources to ignoer the Technology's prerequisites."

Since prerequisites is the plural it allows you to ignore all of the prerequisites of the technology. It doesn't matter if you look at the tech tree or at the actual card (since the FAQ says: "The only prerequisites for a technology are the ones written on its Tech card." By the way: This does not count for the Focused Research action card since it clearly states: "on the tech tree.") because either way you ignore all of them. This means that the L1z1x are allowed to research any technology, if they do not own the prerequisites the costs are increased by 2, "spend 2 additional resources to ignore".

 

This means that it doesn't matter if you use the primary or secondary ability of the Technology strategy card, either way you are using the Technology card and so you can use the Inheritance Systems card.

 

Aeonim said:

My question would be: How does Neural Computing interact with IS?

The Neural Computing card says: "Your cost to purchase new Technologies is reduced by 2."

This means that whenever you purchase any technology and you have to pay some amount of resources, this amount is reduced by 2.

So if you are using the Technology I strategy card and use the primary ability and the Inheritance Systems card to skip some prerequisites you would pay 0 to do so. Because the total cost of purchasing a technology is reduced by 2 by the Neural Computing. The total cost was 0+2 due to the Inheritance Systems card.

However, if you are using the secondary ability you have a total cost of 8+2-2 = 8 if you are using the Inheritance Systems card, 8-2 = 6 if you don't use it and 8-X-2 if you have X planets with a technology specialty matching the technology color you are researching. (8+2-X-2 with the Inheritance Systems card).

 

That is at least what I think after reading all the cards and the FAQ, I just took the exact meaning of the cards and this is what I have got.



#11 Don Kristobal

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 04:56 AM

How I read the rules: Yes you can spend +2 res. to take any tech using either primary or secondary.

is this OP? If you do a little math I don't think so:

The first tech you want to take this way will cost you: 1 tech + 5res + 1 tech + 2res

Say a L1z1x player wants Warsun as his first tech, he could instead have:

Sarween tools (instead of bying the racial) Deep Space cannon (instead of warsun) an 7 additional resources (the extra cost) then he can buy warsun (1 round later) and still have 1 res left + all the benefits from ST and DSC for the rest of the game.

Type 4 drive might be a better choice, but still you have to calculate - is it worth the 3 other techs you would get on the way; Antimass, XRD, Neural Motivator.

If your in a position with loads of resources IH can be a gambreaker, when you set up your forces and buy the  tech you need for closing the game - stalling out the others bying IH and Lightwave with Tech and taking those vital systems and winning a bubble-victory ;-)



#12 mulder

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:54 AM

Don Kristobal said:

How I read the rules: Yes you can spend +2 res. to take any tech using either primary or secondary.

is this OP? If you do a little math I don't think so:

I think it depends on the Technology strategy card you use. If you use the Technology I card it's not really OP, of course you have a certain advantage but every racial technology gives you an advantage and the technologies you skip are helpfull as well.

But if you use the Technology II card you have a problem, imagine a player who can purchase two technologies without the prerequisites per round, that can easily become OP, as far as I'm concerned.



#13 Don Kristobal

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:34 AM

mulder said:

Don Kristobal said:

 

How I read the rules: Yes you can spend +2 res. to take any tech using either primary or secondary.

is this OP? If you do a little math I don't think so:

 

 

I think it depends on the Technology strategy card you use. If you use the Technology I card it's not really OP, of course you have a certain advantage but every racial technology gives you an advantage and the technologies you skip are helpfull as well.

But if you use the Technology II card you have a problem, imagine a player who can purchase two technologies without the prerequisites per round, that can easily become OP, as far as I'm concerned.

Still it would cost him 12 res and that's a lot of units to set aside for tech when playing the L1z1x so I still wouldn't worry that much.



#14 mulder

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 06:51 AM

Don Kristobal said:

 

Still it would cost him 12 res and that's a lot of units to set aside for tech when playing the L1z1x so I still wouldn't worry that much.

 

That's right and I don't want to go back and forth in possible scenarios how the player could pay less because you have to assume the highest costs. However, I think that the danger of the Inheritance Systems card being OP is bigger if you use the Technology II strategy card, that was what I wanted to point out and not that it always happens, only that you increase the danger of an unbalanced game, sorry if I didn't say that clearly.



#15 Don Kristobal

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:40 AM

mulder said:

Don Kristobal said:

 

 

Still it would cost him 12 res and that's a lot of units to set aside for tech when playing the L1z1x so I still wouldn't worry that much.

 

 

 

That's right and I don't want to go back and forth in possible scenarios how the player could pay less because you have to assume the highest costs. However, I think that the danger of the Inheritance Systems card being OP is bigger if you use the Technology II strategy card, that was what I wanted to point out and not that it always happens, only that you increase the danger of an unbalanced game, sorry if I didn't say that clearly.

It's clear :-)



#16 TheChris01

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:15 PM

Although this technology may seem a bit strong, before Shards of the Throne was released many players believed that the L1Z1X were already an overpowered race. They already started the game with a large target. So the only way to modify them would be to weaken them, or make them strong enough to fight off the other players. I can only assume the reason for this card was: if players are going to attack the L1Z1X anyway, might as well give them a damn good reason.



#17 Aeonim

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 01:01 AM

On the other hand you could argue, that with this new Technology, the L1Z1X can be more easily crippled when their player is mishandling resource-management, or that this Tech-Pause (in which they set up for their uber-Techs) gives other player more time to react to them.

It's an opening, and a L1Z1X player should what they're doing if they go down this particular path.



#18 Shadow

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 06:44 AM

Generally, L1Z1x race does not have strong allies in the game.  It's weak trade contracts, no influence homeworld and large starting fleet ensures this.

 

If this racial tech does allow it to buy any tech, then L1Z1x will stay an isolated race which is fine…. theme like.

As far as too powerful, well….any race that buys too much tech will lose.  You should always only buy the tech you need and spam ships.

The constant demise of Jolnar comes to mind with too much tech buying..     Get some good tech and then spam, spam and spam more ships to make the tech count.

 

L1Z1x should buy Type IV drives, Assault cannons and then spam ships starting with Dreads.

Yes other techs would be nice like Advance fighters but L1Z1x does not need it.  L1Z1x already has Cybernetics, Hylar so he is plenty powerful.

Spamming ships should be his focus and only do his racial when he gets the tech card to keep the costs down.

 

L1Z1x's racial would then be used to only to counter another races strength.  

1. Too many ground troops, L1Z1x buys the bacterial weapon.

2.  Pds protecting too many planets from bombardment, L1Z1x buys Graviton negator

3.  Too many races have skipping abilities, L1Z1x buys Transit Diodes.

But ……most weak military races will team up to stop L1Z1x's miltary threat.

 

If the L1Z1x player wants more allies in the game, then that player just should not buy the racial tech.

If the L1Z1x player wants to go it alone, then buying the racial tech is a big advantage.  But that player will know that L1Z1x will be elected for every  Nasty Political law that comes up  like…  Dreads -2 to hit, Only 2 ships of each type, Reversing Resources/Influence on planets, etc.

So the likelyhood of L1Z1x winning more games then average has not really improved. So you could say, L1Z1x is still a balanced race.

 

 






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