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Dice Icons Used In Beta Book


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#1 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 02:25 PM

The little icons used to represent the different dice types within the rulebook… does anyone know whether it's possible to replicate those icons in, say, a forum? I ask because having access to such icons would make it far easier to post dice pools and such in a PbP format - and would make it more visually appealing, too. 


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#2 Inksplat

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:07 PM

Shakespearian_Soldier said:

The little icons used to represent the different dice types within the rulebook… does anyone know whether it's possible to replicate those icons in, say, a forum? I ask because having access to such icons would make it far easier to post dice pools and such in a PbP format - and would make it more visually appealing, too. 

Best shot would be to yank them from the pictures of the sticker sheet available online. That, or make them from scratch in GIMP.



#3 anon.adderlan

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:33 AM

 I too am curious as to what kind of license the icons and dice are under, as I'm looking to make an actual physical dice set. Are the symbols open source, or do you have to pay to use them in a physical product? Is the same true for digital products such as dice roller apps (which I'd like to write because the SW Dice App for Android doesn't support my phone)? Also, are the dice themselves protected by patents?



#4 awayputurwpn

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 07:43 AM

Well, the dice stickers are made available to the public and permission is granted to replicate "for personal use," so I'd assume that to mean it's a fairly generous policy where you would probably be okay making your own set of dice / your own app, if you have the know-how, for personal use

Now distributing stuff like that is very, very bad.

But Jay Little even mentioned on live podcast to the effect that they were trying to eliminate as many barriers as possible for people to just try the game. And dice were one of those barriers; that's why they made the app available as well as the sticker sheet as well as a reference chart.

If you want something more official, you could try and get in touch with FFG and ask permission to craft your own dice for personal use. I doubt they'd have a problem with it.



#5 anon.adderlan

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 07:15 AM

In this day and age, licenses for these kinds of things need to be crystal clear.

awayputurwpn said:

Well, the dice stickers are made available to the public and permission is granted to replicate "for personal use,"

Sadly I couldn't find that license statement on the sticker PDF. Also, that would technically only cover the reproduction of the sticker sheet itself, NOT the use of the icons on dice.

awayputurwpn said:

Now distributing stuff like that is very, very bad.

Really? Says who?

Legally speaking, you can't protect indicational icons (such as dice glyphs) by either copyright or trademark in the first place. And even if you could, just changing the icons slightly would get around that. Speaking of which, have you noticed how many of the dice icons look almost like official logos, such as the ones for The Empire and Legacy Era, but not quite?

Now if the dice are protected by a Design Patent, then they can be protected from reproduction even if the icons are changed. And while I haven't seen a patent citation on the sticker sheet that doesn't mean there isn't one, though I think it's unlikely.

So I could probably produce these dice already, and I'd need to produce more than necessary for my own personal use to cover the manufacturing minimum. But just because something is legal dosen't mean it's respectful, and if FFG says they don't want me to produce either physical dice or a dice App (phone, online roller, etc) for other people's use, then I won't.

Of course we could also make some kind of licensing agreement that benefits both of us.

awayputurwpn said:

But Jay Little even mentioned on live podcast to the effect that they were trying to eliminate as many barriers as possible for people to just try the game. And dice were one of those barriers; that's why they made the app available as well as the sticker sheet as well as a reference chart.

Barrier 1: App costs $5.

Barrier 2: App does not run on my phone.

awayputurwpn said:

If you want something more official, you could try and get in touch with FFG and ask permission to craft your own dice for personal use. I doubt they'd have a problem with it.

First, why do I need permission to craft dice for my own personal use in the first place? Second, I'm assuming that FFG staff read these forums, and so I'm already reaching official channels, and I think a clairification of the license would be useful information for everyone.



#6 darkrose50

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 06:05 AM

Star Wars Dice

Android https://play.google....ghtgames.swdice

Apple http://www.fantasyfl...=702795&efpag=7

 



#7 darkrose50

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:20 AM

Sorry iOS http://www.fantasyfl...eidm=220&esem=2



#8 KommissarK

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:07 AM

Not to take this thread too off topic, but perhaps there should be some community accepted notation as to what the colored dice stand for?

Example:

1[B] + 1[S] + 2[A] + 1[P] + 2[D] + 1[C]

Is 1 boost, 1 setback, 2 ability, 1 proficiency, 2 difficulty, and 1 challenge die.

Or perhaps just know that number + first letter = amount of die.

So 1B 1S 2A 1P…. etc.

Its just annoying that right now we have to say "two setback dice" or "three difficulty dice" to get a point across.

It would be pretty awesome if the book also went into this and how it could be pronounced. Other systems take the time to explain what 1d20 means and all that.



#9 filupa

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:00 AM

I'm working in something similar for my Dice Roller Daemon for Twitter (Ask Dadinci):

We'll use a notation like:

  • XsA + XsP + XsB + XsD + XsC + XsS + XsF

Where X is a number of dices, "s" is for "StarWars" and A, P, B, D, C, S, F are the first leter of the dices names.

At first we think not use the "s" letter bettwen, but in the application we use de "xF" for Fudge System


Now we are working in define as an ASCII representation for all the symbols:

Success:       #  (or *)
Advantage:   {•}
Triumph:      (†)  (or  §)

Failure:      ×  (or Ø)
Threat:       ©
Despair:    (¥)

Force Light:   º
Force Dark:   •

For Example (not developed yet), if you send a message like 1sA+2sP+1sD

A possible answer will be like:

  • "Failure + Advantage + Triumph [{•},{•}] [(†)] [ ] [×,©]"
  • "Success(x3) + Threat(x2) [#,#] [ ] [#] [©,©]"

(all individual die rolls between square brackets)
 

What do you think about this?



#10 awayputurwpn

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 06:47 AM

anon.adderlan said:


 

In this day and age, licenses for these kinds of things need to be crystal clear.

awayputurwpn said:

Well, the dice stickers are made available to the public and permission is granted to replicate "for personal use,"

 

Sadly I couldn't find that license statement on the sticker PDF. Also, that would technically only cover the reproduction of the sticker sheet itself, NOT the use of the icons on dice.

awayputurwpn said:

Now distributing stuff like that is very, very bad.

 

Really? Says who?

Legally speaking, you can't protect indicational icons (such as dice glyphs) by either copyright or trademark in the first place. And even if you could, just changing the icons slightly would get around that. Speaking of which, have you noticed how many of the dice icons look almost like official logos, such as the ones for The Empire and Legacy Era, but not quite?

Now if the dice are protected by a Design Patent, then they can be protected from reproduction even if the icons are changed. And while I haven't seen a patent citation on the sticker sheet that doesn't mean there isn't one, though I think it's unlikely.

So I could probably produce these dice already, and I'd need to produce more than necessary for my own personal use to cover the manufacturing minimum. But just because something is legal dosen't mean it's respectful, and if FFG says they don't want me to produce either physical dice or a dice App (phone, online roller, etc) for other people's use, then I won't.

Of course we could also make some kind of licensing agreement that benefits both of us.

awayputurwpn said:

But Jay Little even mentioned on live podcast to the effect that they were trying to eliminate as many barriers as possible for people to just try the game. And dice were one of those barriers; that's why they made the app available as well as the sticker sheet as well as a reference chart.

 

Barrier 1: App costs $5.

Barrier 2: App does not run on my phone.

awayputurwpn said:

If you want something more official, you could try and get in touch with FFG and ask permission to craft your own dice for personal use. I doubt they'd have a problem with it.

 

First, why do I need permission to craft dice for my own personal use in the first place? Second, I'm assuming that FFG staff read these forums, and so I'm already reaching official channels, and I think a clairification of the license would be useful information for everyone.

 

 

Just trying to help. I was making what I thought were logical assumptions based on what was already said about the dice by the game's designer. Though in retrospect, he's not a lawyer and it's possible that FFG's legal department (whatever that consists of) has a different stance or policy, or a better knowledge of copyright law. I just know the intent of FFG seems to be to make the game as accessible as possible, and to make it so that dice, even though they are unique, are not a barrier to playing the game. But as has been pointed out, there are likely more steps they could have taken or still could take in that direction. For them, it comes down to how much of an expenditure of time and resources they are willing to make, but  it also kinda comes down to how much the gamer actually wants to play the game.

I wasn't aware that indicational icons are not copyrightable. That's interesting.

With the barriers issue, the app not running on your phone isn't a barrier. Otherwise, people without computers could consider the free pdf download a barrier. The cost of $5 could be considered a barrier, but really, you spend more than that on a Chessex 7-piece dice set. So that's not really a barrier either. It's an option that exists in addition to the sticker sheet that shipped with the book, the downloadable pdf, and the reference charts in the book itself.

And lastly, I didn't say you need permission to make things for your personal use. I said, "If you wanted something more official," because it sounded to me like you wanted to make yourself some dice and wanted to know if that was okay. However, you seem to have more knowledge of copyright law than I do and it seems that you've got it figured out so my advice in that arena is probably best not heeded.

I'm wondering why you posed the questions in the first place if you already knew the answers to them?

Or did I misunderstand, and are you wanting to produce and sell dice sets?



#11 KnightFysher

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:00 AM

anon.adderlan said:

awayputurwpn said:

Now distributing stuff like that is very, very bad.

 

Really? Says who?

Any lawyer worth their salt will tell you to secure IP prior to distributing anything intended for commercial use. Regardless of what Lucas/FFG says, you'd want a legal review anyway. Selling software without that is very, very bad. I'm saying this as someone in the software biz for 10+ years now. That doesn't make me right, just giving an answer based on my experience. 

The point is well taken though. I'd love for some of the common elements to have a clearly stated Community-friendly license. "Yup, take these icons and use them however you want so long as you're not selling anything. Make an app, online dice roller, your own sticker sheet, and distribute away to make the game more awesome. Here are the rules to follow when doing so and the actual license…." 

 

 

 



#12 MILLANDSON

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:22 PM

KnightFysher said:

anon.adderlan said:

awayputurwpn said:

 

Now distributing stuff like that is very, very bad.

 

Really? Says who?

 

 

Any lawyer worth their salt will tell you to secure IP prior to distributing anything intended for commercial use. Regardless of what Lucas/FFG says, you'd want a legal review anyway. Selling software without that is very, very bad. I'm saying this as someone in the software biz for 10+ years now. That doesn't make me right, just giving an answer based on my experience. 

The point is well taken though. I'd love for some of the common elements to have a clearly stated Community-friendly license. "Yup, take these icons and use them however you want so long as you're not selling anything. Make an app, online dice roller, your own sticker sheet, and distribute away to make the game more awesome. Here are the rules to follow when doing so and the actual license…." 

As someone with a Masters in UK Copyright Law, I entirely agree - you want to be 100% sure of where you stand before you start distributing anything that could be covered by IP law.

Also, when you're talking about having dice made, remember that the company you pay to make those dice, if there are design rights in place, would be breaking the law, and be open for legal action. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't appreciate that, since they'd be making the dice for commercial purposes (to sell to you), which isn't covered by exemptions to IP law.

Also, remember that different countries have different qualifications for what are covered by copyright. In the UK, dice icons might actually be covered by the artistic work qualification as well as design rights. Looking at US copyright law, I couldn't actually see anything obvious that would mean copyright doesn't apply to the dice icons - could you post a source on that?


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Posts/views/opinions are in no way representative of FFG, and are entirely my own.


#13 anon.adderlan

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 08:18 PM

 In rereading the OP I see I have misunderstood what was being asked about. I'm sure enough to take the risk myself that the icons used to represent the dice types do not meet specific requirements for an artistic work to be protectable by copyright.

The icons used to represent the dice values on the other hand…

awayputurwpn said:

I'm wondering why you posed the questions in the first place if you already knew the answers to them?

Well, it's probably a little more complicated than I let on :)

For example, I have a dice design that is covered by copyright as a whole, yet the individual symbols on each side technically CAN'T be, in the same way that the typeface used in the IBM logo can't be protected by copyright (in the USA), and yet if you used it to spell out 'IBM' you'd be in trouble.

Dice are also tricky in that they're technically a 'device' and not simply a creative expression.

MILLANDSON said:

As someone with a Masters in UK Copyright Law, I entirely agree - you want to be 100% sure of where you stand before you start distributing anything that could be covered by IP law.

Cool.

What I'm worried about is that most people (at least here in the USA) assume the laws are MORE restrictive than they actually are (and not just for copyright), and by doing so end up allowing them to be enforced as more restrictive. IP law is also still enough of a shot in the dark to be 100% sure of anything regarding IP, even if you get permission, especially with patents, where you're pretty much open to a lawsuit no matter what you do.

MILLANDSON said:

Also, remember that different countries have different qualifications for what are covered by copyright.

Completely true, and what I said apparently does not apply in countries such as Germany.

MILLANDSON said:

In the UK, dice icons might actually be covered by the artistic work qualification as well as design rights. Looking at US copyright law, I couldn't actually see anything obvious that would mean copyright doesn't apply to the dice icons - could you post a source on that?

Well, as I interpret it, they're basically the same as typefaces, which as you suggest do have different protections in different countries. In the USA though, typefaces are exempt because a "typeface is an industrial design in which the design cannot exist independently and separately as a work of art." Eltra Corp. v. Ringer, 579 F.2d 294 (4th Cir. 1978).

Mind, I actually don't agree with this. However, it actually fits with the concept of dice moreso than an illustration. And right now, they're only icons, as the actual DICE haven't been made yet. And dice being something other than a creative expression further complicate matters as they would have to be covered by a design patent, or even simply a patent, to protect the design as a whole.

Anyway, I'm going to shoot FFG a line directly about this regardless. In the meantime, I just got my book, and it currently has new book smell!

*SNIFFF* *exhale*. I wonder if I can read it and smell it at the same time :)






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