Jump to content



Photo

Expert Handling and Barrel Roll


  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#1 ironchefzod

ironchefzod

    Member

  • Members
  • 22 posts

Posted 31 August 2012 - 02:14 PM

If you equip Darth Vader with Expert Handling this means he can barrel roll twice in one turn right?  Once with Expert Handling and once with Barrel Roll?



#2 Budgernaut

Budgernaut

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,446 posts

Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:03 PM

 Seems legitimate to me.


"There is a fine line between neutral and amoral. In fact, there may be no line there at all."

--Count Dooku


#3 drkjedi35

drkjedi35

    Member

  • Members
  • 389 posts

Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:04 PM

In my opinion, no he couldn't.  Expert Handling lets you perform a Barrel Roll.  And  as per page 9 of the rule book, "…a ship cannot perform the same action more than once during a single game round (not even when the action is a free action."

Vader's game text lets him do 2 actions, but they still can't be the same action.  Since he already has Barrel Roll, the only reason for Vader to use Expert Handling is if he is trying to remove a Target Lock.

But I could be wrong.  FFG could come back and say that Expert Handling is not considered a Barrel Roll and they may let you do it twice.  This is just my two creds.

Roy



#4 Aahzmandius_Karrde

Aahzmandius_Karrde

    Member

  • Members
  • 274 posts

Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:53 PM

 Roy: I want to agree with you, but the card says 'Perform a barrel roll' not 'Perform a Barrel Roll'.  I really wish it had just used the symbol, the it would be definitive.  I think this is another one that needs to go to the question box.


Welcome to the FFG Star Wars RPG Index 


#5 drkjedi35

drkjedi35

    Member

  • Members
  • 389 posts

Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:40 PM

I know what you mean.  I'll send the question along and see what kind of response I get.

Roy



#6 Budgernaut

Budgernaut

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,446 posts

Posted 31 August 2012 - 06:15 PM

 Forgot about the can't-perform-the-same-action-in-one-round rule. I think he shouldn't be able to do two barrel rolls. I look forward to hearing the official answer.


"There is a fine line between neutral and amoral. In fact, there may be no line there at all."

--Count Dooku


#7 sverigesson

sverigesson

    Member

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 01:59 AM

Budgernaut said:

 Forgot about the can't-perform-the-same-action-in-one-round rule. I think he shouldn't be able to do two barrel rolls.

"I'M SPINNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING!"



#8 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,305 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 05:07 AM

Budgernaut said:

 Forgot about the can't-perform-the-same-action-in-one-round rule. I think he shouldn't be able to do two barrel rolls. I look forward to hearing the official answer.

I guess it comes down to: is Vader performing two barrel rolls or is Vader performing one barrel roll and one Expert Handling?  I'm actually thinking the second, but it'll be interesting to see how the official answer turns out and how they explain it.



#9 rhaak

rhaak

    Member

  • Members
  • 28 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:20 AM

Does Expert Handling count as a free action ?



#10 Hrathen

Hrathen

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,366 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:48 AM

 I am sorry, you only get one action.  If you use expert handling you make a barrel roll and you get to remove a target lock.  There is also an added benifit if you already have the barrel roll ability, that this action does not cause stress, but you stil only get one barrel roll.


Putting an end to this distructive conflict and bringing order to the galaxy.

#11 haslo

haslo

    Member

  • Members
  • 567 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 08:42 AM

Hrathen said:

I am sorry, you only get one action.

Except if you play Darth Vader, who gets two.



#12 spacemonkeymafia

spacemonkeymafia

    Member

  • Members
  • 303 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:11 AM

Aahzmandius_Karrde said:

 Roy: I want to agree with you, but the card says 'Perform a barrel roll' not 'Perform a Barrel Roll'.  I really wish it had just used the symbol, the it would be definitive.  I think this is another one that needs to go to the question box.

Seriously? That is pretty darn nit-picky. In my book, a spade is a Spade.  I agree that symbols would have been better but this is pretty clear to me.  Vader can't execute the same maneuver twice.  The maneuver from expert handling is not called "expert handling", they're calling it out specifically as a barrel roll.  

This is not the same as Vader having Marksmanship and using Focus in the same turn.  No where does Marksmanship say "perform a focus action." I think that is the strongest rebuttal to the double barrel roll argument.



#13 spacemonkeymafia

spacemonkeymafia

    Member

  • Members
  • 303 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:14 AM

rhaak said:

Does Expert Handling count as a free action ?

Expert Handling has the "Action" descriptor on the card and therefore is (and takes up) one action.  If something allowed you to take a free action, then you might be able to choose Expert Handling as that action but in and of itself, it is not a free action.



#14 haslo

haslo

    Member

  • Members
  • 567 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:14 AM

Well, it's intuitively obvious to me that he shouldn't get two, too. But the rules can be interpreted as being ambiguous, so I guess an official ruling is needed indeed.



#15 spacemonkeymafia

spacemonkeymafia

    Member

  • Members
  • 303 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 09:25 AM

haslo said:

 

Well, it's intuitively obvious to me that he shouldn't get two, too. But the rules can be interpreted as being ambiguous, so I guess an official ruling is needed indeed.

 

 

Please note, I'm not trying to antagonize anyone but to be clear: the ambiguity stems ONLY from the fact that it says "Action: perform a barrel roll". If it said "Action: perform a Barrel Roll" then it would be clear Vader could not use the Expert Handling action and a Barrel Roll maneuver in the same turn?



#16 Tawnos

Tawnos

    Member

  • Members
  • 254 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 10:54 AM

spacemonkeymafia said:

The maneuver from expert handling is not called "expert handling", they're calling it out specifically as a barrel roll.

Herein lies the distinction.  The rules forbid taking the same Action more than once in a round.  "Barrel Roll" is an Action you can take on your turn to perform a "barrel roll" maneuver.  Maneuvers are not Actions.  So, in my mind, yes, Vader can in fact take the Barrel roll action, then take (and receive the full benefits of) the Expert Handling Action.  This will cause him to perform two "barrel roll maneuvers", but only one "Barrel Roll Action."

I likewise am eager to hear official word on this.



#17 ironman

ironman

    Member

  • Members
  • 82 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 11:08 AM

i can see both sides of the fence, but would personally say no, he cant do a barrel roll twice.



#18 spacemonkeymafia

spacemonkeymafia

    Member

  • Members
  • 303 posts

Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:17 PM

Tawnos said:

spacemonkeymafia said:

The maneuver from expert handling is not called "expert handling", they're calling it out specifically as a barrel roll.

 

Herein lies the distinction.  The rules forbid taking the same Action more than once in a round.  "Barrel Roll" is an Action you can take on your turn to perform a "barrel roll" maneuver.  Maneuvers are not Actions.  So, in my mind, yes, Vader can in fact take the Barrel roll action, then take (and receive the full benefits of) the Expert Handling Action.  This will cause him to perform two "barrel roll maneuvers", but only one "Barrel Roll Action."

I likewise am eager to hear official word on this.

I erroneously introduced the "maneuver" term when discussing this before.  To clarify, no where in the rules do they ever refer to a barrel roll as anything but an Action. As far as I can tell, there is no reference to a "barrel roll maneuver".



#19 drkjedi35

drkjedi35

    Member

  • Members
  • 389 posts

Posted 03 September 2012 - 05:21 PM

spacemonkeymafia said:

Tawnos said:

 

spacemonkeymafia said:

The maneuver from expert handling is not called "expert handling", they're calling it out specifically as a barrel roll.

 

Herein lies the distinction.  The rules forbid taking the same Action more than once in a round.  "Barrel Roll" is an Action you can take on your turn to perform a "barrel roll" maneuver.  Maneuvers are not Actions.  So, in my mind, yes, Vader can in fact take the Barrel roll action, then take (and receive the full benefits of) the Expert Handling Action.  This will cause him to perform two "barrel roll maneuvers", but only one "Barrel Roll Action."

I likewise am eager to hear official word on this.

 

 

I erroneously introduced the "maneuver" term when discussing this before.  To clarify, no where in the rules do they ever refer to a barrel roll as anything but an Action. As far as I can tell, there is no reference to a "barrel roll maneuver".

 

There is no such thing as a Barrel Roll "maneuver".  Barrel Roll is only an action.  Just because you use a maneuver template, does not make it a maneuver.  Both Barrel Roll and Expert Handling still happen during the "Perform Action" step of the "Activation Phase".  Think about it like this.  Maneuvers are executed and Actions are performed.  The first sentence on the Expert Handling card reads "Perform a barrel roll."  So if you use Expert Handling you will have to perform a Barrel Roll.  Therefore you cannot perform another Barrel Roll this round.

 

Roy



#20 haslo

haslo

    Member

  • Members
  • 567 posts

Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:15 PM

drkjedi35 said:

There is no such thing as a Barrel Roll "maneuver".  Barrel Roll is only an action.  Just because you use a maneuver template, does not make it a maneuver.  Both Barrel Roll and Expert Handling still happen during the "Perform Action" step of the "Activation Phase".  Think about it like this.  Maneuvers are executed and Actions are performed.  The first sentence on the Expert Handling card reads "Perform a barrel roll."  So if you use Expert Handling you will have to perform a Barrel Roll.  Therefore you cannot perform another Barrel Roll this round.

 

I appreciate that this discussion remains on a strictly logical level, and this post makes the wonder I've had for a few days now rather explicit: Since performing Expert Handling is performing an action, but it seems that performing a Barrel Roll is performing an action even if it's done during the … performation … of Expert Handling:

It seems that there are nested actions in X-Wing. Actions that, when performed, allow you to perform one or more other actions.

Interestingly, the action of Darth Vader exactly is one such action, too: It's an action that allows you to perform any two other actions.

With this parallel in mind, I'm now fairly convinced that Darth Vader cannot perform two barrel rolls (or Barrel Rolls, for that matter)…






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS