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REQ: Ship Optimization advice for a homebrew Escort Carrier? Will this ship get my RT killed? Is being in it suicidal with this much nice stuff on it?


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#1 Gavinfoxx

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 07:10 PM

Hi there. I recently designed a (very, very) homebrew-happy ship. When I presented this to the GM, he scoffed, saying that it was under-armored, under-gunned, and not capable of protecting itself. I need some people who are much, much better at math than me to both take a look at these (mostly complete, but not 100% complete) houserules, and this ship design, and to provide some feedback.

My basic idea is 'This ship has rediculously long range weapons, incredibly versatile bombers that can act as fighters, is absurdly fast, and beyond the relatively armor, is quite tough. Its detection capabilities are incredible, and the likelyhood of it being snuck up on is extremely low. Further, since space is -- you know -- FREAKING HUGE, the amount of situations where it can't simply retreat from something that is going to be inevitably slower than us is infinitesimal, letting us use our higher range to take pot shots as necesssary.

And I was under the impression that the way that macrobatteries work was that you choose a target, you make the strength number in attacks, and you assign the lowest damage hits to the void shields, than add all the rest of the hits together, and then subtract the armor from the total damage of the rest of the hits… making high strength macrobateries REALLY REALLY awesome.  I don't know exactly where I read this, but could someone provide some clarification, maybe some page numbers, and maybe even some quotes on this issue?  Regardless, he says that the ship is undergunned, and that pirates generally fight in swarms and such, and apparently 'there are times when you will be at short range, and won't be able to fight your way to long range'…

I find this… really odd. Cause, you know. Space is REALLY REALLY BIG. Like, REALLY big. And even ambushes take a lot of time to 'work'. And the ship is really maneuverable… and the sensors are fantastic.. but, I don't know. Maybe my math is wrong. Maybe I am overestimating the strength of the ship, of my 'custom' design. Again, that is why I would like some feedback on this, if I have stretched myself too thin, or if I could have spent 66 Ship Points a better way. Any help and response, especially some math analysis, would be great!

Also, if anyone has any suggestions for how to complete the incomplete rules of the Cutters, I would be REALLY thankful! Thanks!

 

 

 

'Artemis' - Artemis class (as the first of her class, has the name of the class, following an old tradition)

"This ship appears to be a variant of an Orion class Transport/Clipper, but not made to the standard version at all. Its lines appear sleeker, evoking some of the more streamlined variants of the Hazeroth class Raider. It appears to be designed as an Escort Carrier, with the cuts in the hull to provide a launch bay not appearing makeshift, as if for some reason, someone wanted to design a dedicated carrier that small. It also seems to have fewer macrocannon turrets than an Orion could have, but those it does have seem to be placed strategically throughout the ship, to consolidate fire in any arc around the ship. Notably, both the Macrocannons and the defense turrets appear to be completely laser based, for some reason. Why ever could someone want to have a carrier this small, and whether the apparent reduction in firepower and in carrier bay capacity from similar Escort Carriers will spell doom for the ship, you don't know… But it must have been laid down by someone quite eccentric, quite wealthy, very driven, and with strong, near heretical opinions on voidship design. You are quite certain that if you gave any traditional Fleet Admiral a tour of this ship, he would become furious at what he saw!"

Artemis (based on Orion)

Base Stats:
Dimensions: 3 km long, .4 km abeam at fins approx
Mass: 8 megatons
Crew: 14000 crew, approx.
Accel: 5.4 gravities max. sustainable acceleration
Speed: 10 Manoeuvrability: +25
Detection: +10 Hull Integrity: 35
Armour: 12 Turret Rating: 1
Space: 40 SP: 27
Weapon Capacity: 1 Keel

Escort Carrier: This vessel was designed to carry, rapidly launch, and rapidly retrieve shuttle, lighter, and cutter sized craft, while still retaining some 'bulk' cargo capacity. The vessel carries one 'Lathe-Pattern Escort Carrier Bay', an apparently new design, taking up what would otherwise be the Dorsal weapon slot. Due to the fact that the bay still contains some bulk cargo capacity of the cargo bay it was designed from, the ship gains an extra 50 points when working toward a Trade objective. Further, when carrier operations are being undertaken, this bay has a crackling energy field, with security hatches which must be sealed off before going into the warp. However, due to the issues regarding fitting such a bay on a relatively small vessel (and also maintaining some cargo room), it only has one point of strength, and it can only rapidly launch small craft of roughly cutter or lighter size and shape. The security hatches on this bay must be open during the Strategic Turn when small craft are landing or taking off. If this Component ever loses power when the hatches are open, this Component becomes Depressurised. However, unlike the Hold Landing Bay that this design takes partial inspiration from, it is not jury-rigged and does not cause structural impact.

Fast Ship: Due to the precisely calibrated nature of this ship, it cannot be equipped with Components that increase its Armour.


SHIP POINTS FROM WARRANT: +66
ARCHEOTECH FROM WARRANT: 1
XENOSTECH FROM WARRANT: 1
(dm permission gained to convert xenostech from warrant to archeotech, based on character backstory. Net 2 Archeotech from warrant)

SHIP: Artemis: +44 Space, -27 SP (Homebrew)
HISTORY: Resolute & Self Reliant: -1 SP (Homebrew; Self Reliant from the pirate option in Into the Storm)
DRIVE: best quality, modified, theta7: ARCHEOTECH, +45 power, -13 space, (1 from theta, 2 from archeotech, 2 from best quality) -5 sp
WARP ENGINE: best quality, markov warp 1: -11 power, -11 space, -3 sp
BRIDGE: Good quality Exploration bridge: -1 space, -3 power, -2 SP
LIFE SUSTAINER: best quality vitae pattern life sustainer: -3 power, -1 space, -2 sp
CREW QUARTERS: good quality clan-kin quarters: -1 power, -3 space, -2 SP
KEEL MACROCANNON: best quality (range, strength) Staravar Laser Macrobattery: ARCHEOTECH, -4 power, -4 space, -4 SP
(Dorsal Macrocannon slot removed due to hold)
GELLAR: warpsbane hull: -1 power, -2 sp
SHIELD: best quality single repulsor shield: -5 power, -1 space, -2 sp
AUGUR: good quality deep void augur array: -6 power, 0 space, -2 SP
HOLD/BAY: custom hold: -2 power, -4 space, sp in base ship cost (homebrew)
MISC: best quality arboretum: -1 power, -1 space, -3 sp
MISC: good quality medicae deck: -1 power, -1 space, -2 sp
MISC: Good quality laboratorium: -1 power, -1 space, -4 sp
MISC: Billet: -1 power, -1 space, -1 sp (homebrew, carries 1250 men; grants +1 to command tests involving boarding and hit and run per 250 men, if normal barracks carries 5000 men for a +20 bonus. Currently holding 600 men for a +2 bonus)
MISC: Librarium Vault: -1 power, -1 space, -1 SP
MISC: good quality Pharmacia: -1 power, -1 space, -3 sp

Space USED: 44/44
SP used: 66/66
Power Used: 42/45

 

Derived Stats:
Speed:
Orion/Artemis: 10
Resolute: -1
Theta7: +2
Modified Drive: +1

Total speed: 12

Maneuverability:
Orion/Artemis: 25
Theta7: +5 maneuverability
Repulsor Shield: Ship does not suffer maneuverability penalties when travelling through astral phenomena

Total Maneuverability: 30, Doesn't suffer penalties in astral phenomena

Hull Points:
Orion/Artemis: 35
Resolute: +3
Hold: (No reduction due to homebrew)

So Hull Integrity total: 38

Repair and Damage:
Resolute: +10 bonus to all repair tests
Self Reliant: When affects long term repairs, can repair 1d10+5 points of hull integrity rather than 1d5.
Theta7: if Thrusters Damaged or Engines Crippled critical hit is received, severity roll will always be 10.

Science:
Medicae Deck: +20 to all medicae tests, may treat triple medic's int bonus
Laboratorium: +20 to all tests to repair, analyze, identify ancient or xenos artefacts, or to craft single items
Pharmacia: May replicate drugs with scholastic lore (chymystry) test. NOTE: Homebrew: This skill folded into Trade (Chymyst)
Librarium: Investigation skills abord the ship gain +10

Sensor:
Orion/Artemis: +10
Exploration Bridge: +5 to Active Augury
Deep Void: +10 to ship's detection

Total: +25 to active augury, +20 to ship's detection in general.

Warp Travel & Navigation:
Markov 2: Reduce Warp travel time by 1d5 weeks
Warpsbane Hull: Navigation tests to pilot through warp gain +10 bonus. Roll twice on warp encounters table and navigator gets to choose which is used.

Endeavors and Objectives:
Custom Hold: Presumed 50 points on Trade objective (homebrew).
Exploration Bridge: 50 points on exploration objective
Billet: Presumed 25 points on Military objective if carrying troops (homebrew)
Pharmacia: 50 points to Trade or Criminal Objectives where Drugs and Medicine will be useful

Morale, Population, Time at Void:
6 best quality: +6d5 morale (this WILL be reduced by an unspecified amount by GM action at a later point)
5 good quality: +5 morale (this WILL be reduced by an unspecified amount by GM action at a later point)
Clan-Kin quarters: Morale loss reduced by 1, minimum 1.
Arboretum: Double time ship may remain at void without crew or morale loss. Increase Maximum population by 2

Command:
Billet: Presumed +5 bonus on command tests involving boarding and hit and run (homebrew; currently at +2 due to billet not being full)
Clan-Kin Quarters: Command Tests to defend against boarders gain +5

----------

Aegis-Class Laser Cutter: (custom design)

Craft Rating: Bomber+8, Fighter +5
Tactical Speed: 20m/20aus
Cruise Speed: 2300kph/8vu
Speed Rating: 8
Maneuverability: 0
Squadron Size: 10
Craft Size: Massive
Craft Structure: 45
Crew: Pilot, Co-Pilot, Gunner, Navigator, Technical Servitor
Carrying Capacity: 12 people or equivalent Cargo
Weapons:

Twin-Linked Long Barreled Multi-Laser (Front/Left)
500m, 3d10+3 E, -/-/10, Maneuver 10, Penetration 4
Twin-Linked Long Barreled Multi-Laser (Front/Right)
500m, 3d10+3 E, -/-/10, Maneuver 10, Penetration 4

Twin Linked Long Barreled Lascannon Turret (Front/Left/Right)
600m, 5d10+10 E, S/-/- Maneuver 10, Penetration 10

2 Swivel Long-Barreled Turbo-Laser Destructor (can be fired independently, fired as twin linked, or rapier-linked for different stats. Stats homebrew modification of existing Turbo-laser Destructor stats.)
1000m ,4d10+30E Penetration: 20 S/-/- Front/Left/Right, Blast 8 Felling 2, Recharge, Maneuver 5
When Rapier Linked (homebrew stats for this):
1000m, 6d10+30 E S/-/- Front Penetration 30, felling 4, Tearing, Storm, Recharge, Maneuver 5

Multi-purpose craft: The Laser Cutter is designed as both a bomber and an interceptor. When used as an Fighter, its Rating drops to +5.

Durable Interceptor: When the oversized reactor for powering the laser weapons aren't fully charged (ie, when prepared for performing any role which does not require the use of the largest lasers on the craft, such as anti-voidship roles, which require charging the reactor to its capacity while in the dock), this craft gains the 'Durable' property: When checking for Squadron losses, a Laser Cutter squadron that is not prepped for a role which requires use of the Turbo-Lasers, reduces its losses by one to a minimum of zero or gains a +5 bonus on the Upkeep Test.

Specialized Bomber: Due to the specialized weaponry of this craft, it can be prepared to do missions that other craft are incapable of, including targeting turrets on a voidship to permanently knock out the turret capability, and targeting specific subsystems to knock them out, and attacking subsystems and bypassing much of the armor (rules for these missions are pending). However, also due to the specialized weaponry, it is inferior for standard bombing runs, dealing only 1d10+2 damage on a hit for a standard bombing run, rather than 1d10+4.

CUSTOM RULES FOR TARGETING/CHARGING RAPIER LINKED LASERS, AND THE MISSIONS IT ENABLES, ARE NOT YET WRITTEN.



#2 UberMutant

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 01:55 AM

Seems to be alot of homebrew stuff in there, what made you want to do that rather than use the extensive range of options already available?

Alot of this seems to be pretty damn good stuff, alot of best quality gear there and archeotech. As a GM I would hit you with some hefty repair and upkeep bills if you wanted all that. Yes the ship is fast and can manover, yes your detection rating is pretty good but any solid hit is going to hurt you and once you start taking damage your toast, a thrusters or engine critical will see you finished off.

Lunch bays are very powerful its true but they only work when you have something else to back them up. Whats with the homebrew starfighters? Some kinf od super fighter bomber with extra lasers smacks a little of wanting to have your cake and eat it. Why not just have bombers or if you want a punch, torpedo bombers?

 

 

Your reading Macrocannons wrong, first you determine if you wish to mass your individual macrobatteries in arc into one attack that combines damage or fire them individually. 

Then you roll to hit with the BS of whomever is firing the guns, modified for range as explained in the core rulebook. If you pass your BS test you get ONE hit, plus ONE for each Degree of Success UPTO the number of the weapons strength. So, say it is strength 3 and you get 2 degrees of success you get 3 hits, if you get 5 degrees of succes you still only get 3 hits. This means full broadsides kick ass.

You then discount a number of hits equal to the targets void shields (BEFORE rolling any damage). If you chose to mass your macrobatteries into one super shot, you as the attacker can choose which hits are effected (ie the thunderstrike cannons are deflected while the rhyza plasma cannon are not).

Then you can can roll the damage, subtract ship armour and then thats how much hull integrity it looses. Remember to check for critical hits :D

 



#3 Gavinfoxx

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 03:29 AM

*sighs*

 

I think the whole 'carrier' thing was a really bad idea in general…



#4 Nameless2all

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 04:31 PM

No, carriers are good ships when used to their full yet specific potential.  You never run into a firefight with a carrier (unless your a battleship carrier), so pretty much what you have is a good ship for quick raids into and out of places.  If that is your cup of tea, then have at it.   Best to ask the rest of the group though what they want.  Most ships in a RT game aren't tailored to one person, it's tailored to the group.  You can't truly have a pirate ship if you have Missionary's on board, get my drift?

I don't have most of my books with me, but the whole ship concept isn't toooo far fetched.  For me in my game it would cost more SP than the original design for though (like 1 or 2).  Having everything be good quality or better is going with the rules (because there is nothing saying your can't), but alas, your ship is definitely a prime target for pirates.  As for the unique attack craft……..  yea, what UberMutant stated.  I mean, your hanger was a Str of 1 (why would you want this is beyond me, but if it goes better with the ship and it's story then awesome!!), so you can have up to 3 squadrons of attack craft.  2 fighter and 1 bomber is a good combo since your ship doesn't really have allot of room to store torpedo's (so torpedo bombers would be a bad idea IMHO).

I had 4 players, that purchased two corvette ships starting out and they did actually quite well.  They ran circles around most vessels and fled from the orc battle cruiser I sent against them.  The did lightning raids and quick insurgent missions.  One had a troop transport in it with teleport, the other had another mix just as deadly though I can't recall it for the life of me.

Anyhoot, like UberMutant said, having allot of houserules makes a mess out of things. All of us GM's like to keep it simple, and to varying degree's we utilize the KISS method. Keep It Simple Silly. Having one unique thing won't throw the game out of whack, but having several causes problems especially if it's not been thoroughly discussed with your GM and other players.  Best of luck to your, and congrats to thinking outside the box.  The unique attack craft could be an archaeotech discovery waiting to happen if you mention that to the GM.  I created and compiled stuff similar to it on my weblink below, listed as…. Archaeotech.    I wish upon you many fruitful endeavors, though they may not always be prosperous. 


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#5 HappyDaze

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:39 PM

Wow. My playstyle is so different that I can't really take this design seriously. It really seems to be an exercise in min-max that couldn't go far enough with adding homebrew just to go a bit further. I have to wonder if the opposition that this ship faces will be similarly outfitted, or if this is supposed to be something sparly special.


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#6 H2SO4

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:37 PM

That ship is fast, but enemies with Energistic conversion matrix (archeotech) can be faster and some ork ships have "Red Button" (or simply by using Flank Speed).

Don't rely too much on detection bonuses, you can still be surprised by a sophisticated pirate ship on silent running, say with Cypra-pattern drive & Empyrean Mantle (-35 total to detection). Minefileds could also be used, a ship / station / port may turn out to be in the hands of enemies, or they may just sneak saboteurs on your ship for the occasion.

One-trick ponies generally don't fare very good.

Personally, I would get a bigger hull, it might just end up cheaper in SPs, than saving space & power by using all those good/best quality components.

Also, I would be the captain of a much bigger ship. It's a style thing.



#7 Errant

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:45 AM

 Yeah, this thing would get knocked over by a stiff breeze in any sort of stand-up fight. It would make a fantastic supplemental craft to a heavy-hitter cruiser though.



#8 Trader Austin

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 10:32 PM

 their are reasons ships like that are called ESCORT carriers. they escort other ships. what you have is an experimental ship that wouldn't last very long except in more civilized space by itself. a lc or cruiser and you have a decent raiding team. fighter/bomber squadrons for fast response and "flush team" while the cruiser is the defense and big guns. then i has the space to carry away the goods. by itself it is a sitting duck. as an escort it is decent. for just 1 ship though get a different hull with a landing bay. you need either better weps or more squadrons for a swarm ship. 

as a side note once played a short game with a avenger GC as the ship. she had 6 jovan pat. launch bays. 



#9 Kiton

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 07:16 AM

What you have is pretty much an attempt at making a half-sized Grand Cruiser. Unfortunately, you have neither the space, nor the power, nor the crew, for the multitude of jobs you wish to grant it, and it shows. Even that speed isn't as helpful as you think: I've piloted/kaptin'd [it may have been a slightly greener crew than most] a Grand Cruiser, and we got that thing to speed 10.

At the very least, get a second weapon back: Both of them macrobatteries if possible, and make one of them Disruption Macrocannons. Surprisingly vicious little weapon, and it pratically REEKS of *profit* once you start to use it well. You can't really expect to try to be a cargohauler AND a science vessel AND a combat ship AND a boarding vessel when you're barely big enough to fill one or two of those roles moderately, and have a total crew half the size of certain *boarding forces* you might face.



#10 Gavinfoxx

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 07:44 AM

The question is though… if getting big ships is SO NECESSARY, than why are there 'raiders' at all as an option? Is using a Raider generally suicidal for a RT??



#11 HappyDaze

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 08:47 AM

Gavinfoxx said:

The question is though… if getting big ships is SO NECESSARY, than why are there 'raiders' at all as an option? Is using a Raider generally suicidal for a RT??

In my view, Raiders are best used in packs, even by RTs. In my game, you don't really see them operating independently too often. Normally, Frigates and some Light Cruisers are about the only ships that tend to operate independently with any regularity, and even these welcome supporting squadrons.


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#12 Unholy_Ravager

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 09:21 AM

 Is the Atomic Raider of Doom still considered a thing?



#13 Kiton

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 10:23 AM

HappyDaze said:

Gavinfoxx said:

The question is though… if getting big ships is SO NECESSARY, than why are there 'raiders' at all as an option? Is using a Raider generally suicidal for a RT??

In my view, Raiders are best used in packs, even by RTs. In my game, you don't really see them operating independently too often. Normally, Frigates and some Light Cruisers are about the only ships that tend to operate independently with any regularity, and even these welcome supporting squadrons.

Basically this. You can make several raiders for the time and resources of a cruiser. Let's say you get five made for every two Battlecruisers

-Each can position itself independently, whether on tactical scale or across the sector on their own little jobs. As long as you're not involving the need for massive manufactorums or cargo holds, they can even lug stuff around in different directions all at once.

-Each has weapons of its own, though less of them individually. Depending on what you face, you could threaten several more locations than one ship can

-They are more maneuverable, individually having a slight speed and maneuverability advantage, allowing a good 'wolfpack' to dictate most of the terms of the engagement

-Each has its own void shields, and the total adds up across the ships to more than what the cruiser has. Individual maneuvers and actions too.

 

Overall a small Raider or Frigate rarely operates alone. But, to a larger vessel, it provides valuable extra firepower, protection and utility at a far lower cost than making a second one, and if fielded as a small squadron can viciously pick apart ships many times their size, with more redundancy in the face of damage or incidents.



#14 Gavinfoxx

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 12:51 PM

This just seems… really weird to me.  I was under the impression that having 40, 50, 60, 70 ship points was generally considered EXCEPTIONAL…

 

If I were a Rogue Trader and wanted to be survivable on the cheap, with only one ship, and still be able to do Rogue Tradery stuff, I'd just use a Carrack…



#15 HappyDaze

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 01:25 PM

Gavinfoxx said:

This just seems… really weird to me.  I was under the impression that having 40, 50, 60, 70 ship points was generally considered EXCEPTIONAL…

 

If I were a Rogue Trader and wanted to be survivable on the cheap, with only one ship, and still be able to do Rogue Tradery stuff, I'd just use a Carrack…

My group began with a total of 60 SP and opted for a nicely-outfitted Turbulent-class Heavy Frigate (with no archeotech components, no xenotech components, and no components with good or best craftsmanship modifiers). We have several PC and significant NPC crewmen that are from the Child of Dynasty origin, and these provided 12 of the SP. We have a well-rounded and versatile ship, but nothing that screams special snowflake.


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#16 Nameless2all

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 06:01 PM

The game is tailored to whatever you and your players want it to be.  They have transports in there for a reason, and you can even pick a transport as a starting package ship in ITS.  If you are a GM, and can't scale down your game or tailor it to your players desire's so they can have fun with a raider (or smaller) ship, then you are wrong.  So what if the players want to have a transport, a corvette, a destroyer, or whatever, because it's your job, as a GM, to tailor the game to be to that level and make it enjoyable for them.  I mean, heck, every RT had to start somewhere in order to get those advance ships and achaeotech parts for it.

EDIT:  As a side not, if you have the SP for a decent size ship and decide to get a smaller one with really nice parts in it, don't be mad at the GM if he/she throws a larger ship at you that has an equal SP value as your small expensive ship.


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#17 UberMutant

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:10 AM

My players have a star galleon decked out as a deep space exploration and salvage vessel, its nice and big, has lots of cool stuff but with laser and plasma batteries on its flanks, its not very powerful against proper warships. This has caused some problems in the first few space battles.

Luckily the fleet has expanded since then with a Sword Frigate outfitted for battle and a Carrack Transporter outfitted for very basic cargo hauling. They have just got thier hands on a Hazeroth Raider which will be outfitted with some naughty smuggling bits and bobs……






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