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#1 AussieKSU

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 08:38 AM

Can Djinn be used to host non-breaker programs if the non-breakers are in play before djinn is played?

Does Femme Fatale have to beat the strength of the ice in order to bypass it?

Do effect that allow you to bypass ice (inside job, and femme fatale for example) get around the "when encountered" effects on ice. For example, does inside job get around losing 3 bits to toll booth?

 



#2 redocelot

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 12:31 PM

AussieKSU said:

Can Djinn be used to host non-breaker programs if the non-breakers are in play before djinn is played?

Does Femme Fatale have to beat the strength of the ice in order to bypass it?

Do effect that allow you to bypass ice (inside job, and femme fatale for example) get around the "when encountered" effects on ice. For example, does inside job get around losing 3 bits to toll booth?

 

 

1. No, the cards are already installed if they're in-play before Djinn is installed. You must install cards specifically on Djinn in order for Djinn to host them.

Page 22 under 'Hosting'

2. No. When you bypass a piece of ice, you never 'encounter' it. You don't have to match the strength of ice you never encounter since you're not interacting with them in any way.

3. Yes. Bypassing ice means you don't encounter it. 

Unfortunately I can't find anything in the rulebook that clarifies the term 'Bypass', but I feel like the term and intent are obvious enough that you won't be arguing with people over it.



#3 Cervantes3773

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:27 PM

To avoid making another thread:

You have to equal or exceed the strength of the ice to be able to interact with it/its subroutines.  Does this include things like "spend one click to break one subroutine"?



#4 AussieKSU

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:35 PM

redocelot said:

 

3. Yes. Bypassing ice means you don't encounter it. 

 

 

 

inside job reads:

" Bypass the first piece of ice encountered during this run. "

How can I bypass it if I don't encounter it then?

Once again, I think you are right, but I can't find anything in the rules to support this.



#5 AussieKSU

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:37 PM

redocelot said:

2. … You don't have to match the strength of ice you never encounter since you're not interacting with them in any way.

 

That's how I read it, but I had a buddy kick up a stink about this, and I then went into when you have to match the ice's strength for a breaker to be able to effect it. I couldn't find anything in the book (or don't remember) anything that supports what you say here, although I think you are right. Any rules to quote on this to support?



#6 AussieKSU

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:40 PM

Cervantes3773 said:

You have to equal or exceed the strength of the ice to be able to interact with it/its subroutines.  Does this include things like "spend one click to break one subroutine"?

 

If you are talking about Ichi, or other ice that the runner can spend clicks to break routines, then no, you do not need to have a breaker match the ice's strength, as you the runner are paying clicks. A breaker is not interacting with the ice.



#7 Cervantes3773

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:40 PM

AussieKSU said:

Cervantes3773 said:

 

You have to equal or exceed the strength of the ice to be able to interact with it/its subroutines.  Does this include things like "spend one click to break one subroutine"?

 

 

 

If you are talking about Ichi, or other ice that the runner can spend clicks to break routines, then no, you do not need to have a breaker match the ice's strength, as you the runner are paying clicks. A breaker is not interacting with the ice.

Yay! We played it right! :)

 

Thanks!



#8 ZombiEd

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:49 PM

AussieKSU said:

Cervantes3773 said:

 

You have to equal or exceed the strength of the ice to be able to interact with it/its subroutines.  Does this include things like "spend one click to break one subroutine"?

 

 

 

If you are talking about Ichi, or other ice that the runner can spend clicks to break routines, then no, you do not need to have a breaker match the ice's strength, as you the runner are paying clicks. A breaker is not interacting with the ice.

Are you sure about this?  From the way I read the rules, to use abilities on the card like "spend one click to break a subroutine" you must interact with the ice and therefore you must equal or exceed the strength.  Otherwise, I can't think of any reason to increase the strength of an icebreaker.



#9 AussieKSU

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:10 PM

You do not need an ice breaker to break subroutines on ichi.

 

The card reads:

"The Runner can spend [Click] to break any subroutine on Ichi 1.0."

Key word, "Runner".

 

An icebreaker is not interacting with ichi if you are spending clicks. 100 percent on this.

 

In fact, i think I just answered my Femme Fatale question. :D



#10 ZombiEd

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:58 PM

You may be right, but right now I'm finding it hard to take that leap of faith that says there is text on any ice that the runner can access and use without first encountering the ice.  Just because a runner can use a click instead of a credit to break a subroutine doesn't by itself imply you have access to that ability without first encountering the ice with an icebreaker of equal or higher strength.  I find nothing in the rules that supports that interpretation. 

So unless you are in a position to make a ruling on FF's behalf  (which you may be as far as I know) I'm going to need a little more than your 100% certainty to assure me you are correct.



#11 TheRealLeo

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 05:27 PM

You encounter a piece of ICE whether or not you have any programs in play. Encountering ICE is not contingent on the runner having certain cards (i.e. icebreakers) in play. It is simply contingent on a) did the runner run on a server with ICE; and b) is the ICE rezzed? If those conditions are true, the runner will encounter that ICE, with or without his programs. Thus, because the ICE itself provides the mechanism by which you can break its subroutines, you do not need a breaker with equal strength.

Remember, icebreakers, not the runner, need strength equal to the ICE to interact with it. The runner can and will interact with the ICE whether he/she wants to or not.



#12 Treguard

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:05 PM

For clarification, as it's getting a little overcomplicated:

Bypassing means you can ignore and circumvent the target instead of encountering the intended effect. Femme Fatale works in this manner as she's effectively charming her way through her target's subroutines by using her feminine wiles*. This is exclusive from breaking ICE in the normal fashion.

*yes it's just a bunch of code (but I love her dammit!)

The Haas-Bioroid ICE where you can spend clicks to break is mainly down to the fact that you're interacting with a sentient being. You could certainly hack and power through their electronic defences, as per usual, or the Runner can spend time outwitting/evading their opponent. Think like a gamer :)



#13 Anarchosyn

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:42 PM

ZombiEd said:

You may be right, but right now I'm finding it hard to take that leap of faith that says there is text on any ice that the runner can access and use without first encountering the ice.  Just because a runner can use a click instead of a credit to break a subroutine doesn't by itself imply you have access to that ability without first encountering the ice with an icebreaker of equal or higher strength.  I find nothing in the rules that supports that interpretation. 

So unless you are in a position to make a ruling on FF's behalf  (which you may be as far as I know) I'm going to need a little more than your 100% certainty to assure me you are correct.

 

You don't even need any icebreaker's installed to bypass Haas Bioroid Ice, that's the point of the click interactions. 



#14 AussieKSU

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 07:57 AM

Treguard said:

Bypassing means you can ignore and circumvent the target instead of encountering the intended effect.

Read inside job one more time. It seems you both encounter the ice, and bypass it.

 



#15 AussieKSU

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 08:02 AM

Treguard said:

For clarification, as it's getting a little overcomplicated:

Bypassing means you can ignore and circumvent the target instead of encountering the intended effect. Femme Fatale works in this manner as she's effectively charming her way through her target's subroutines by using her feminine wiles*.

I'm not sure this is the right interpretation, however I think it is the right end answer. Fatale states that the Runner may pay bits… Therefore, fatale does not need to equal the strength of the ice for this to take effect as she is not interacting with it, much like why the Runner can break routines on Ichi.



#16 byronczimmer

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 08:26 AM

Inside Job is played.

You encounter the first piece of Rezzed ICE (let's call it a Tollboth).

You have two effects in play:
1) Runner: Bypass the first piece of ICE encountered

2) Corp: Make the Runner Pay 3 Credits

The Runner is the active player, and chooses the order of their pending effects first, in this case, to bypass the ICE.

As the Runner is no longer encountering the ICE, the Corp cannot enact the Toolbooth effect.

 

 

-=-=-

 

For Bioroid ICE:  A disadvantage of Bioroid ICE is that the Runner can spend a click to break any routine.  They can do this without any programs installed.  It is only if the Runner wants to break a Bioroid subroutine with an icebreaker that the icebreaker has to match strength in order to interact.

 



#17 AussieKSU

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 09:57 AM

Yes, I think you are spot on with that. Thanks. I reread the order of effects section prior to your post, but was unsure if it was like the stack in M:tg, or if you choose the effect, it resolves, and you choose another effect, etc.



#18 Paul Grogan

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 11:54 AM

redocelot said:

No. When you bypass a piece of ice, you never 'encounter' it. You don't have to match the strength of ice you never encounter since you're not interacting with them in any way.

Sorry I'm late to the party, and this may have been covered already.  But I dont think this is right

The text on femme fatale is:  "When you encounter that ice, you may spend 1 [Credits] per subroutine on that ice to bypass it. "

So that is pretty clear to me.  You encounter it, but then you can pay to bypass it.
 



#19 AussieKSU

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 12:56 PM

As was suggested a few posts back:

 

You do encounter the ice, however there are two effects which the Runner can choose to resolve:

 

ice effect - when you encounter Toll Booth, pay 3 credits… etc.

Femme Fatale - When you encounter… etc

Since you are the active player, you choose which effect to do first, logically femme's effect, which bypasses the ice. now that the ice is bypassed, you no longer need to asses the ice's effect.

 

A similiar situation which is detailed in the rules about the order of effects when the Runner has Wyldside and Pawnshop in play. It is not that both effects are on some stack, so that the Runner is forced to draw two cards. The runner may choose to asses Pawnshop's effect first, and then not have to assess Wyldside's.



#20 Kuk

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:43 PM

Does Femme Fatale break any ice? We noticed the first statement says SENTRY, but the last description says, "...any ice"! Why would they print the first statement, if it breaks any ice?

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