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Fitting In >> Talent & Specialization Relationships


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#1 ynnen

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 02:44 PM

One thing I am interested to hear back from beta playtesters would be feedback and input on the structure of the specialization trees.

For example:

  • Are the talents clear and well-written, do you know what they are intended to do?
  • Do the talents make sense within the specializations they appear?
  • Do the specialization "flowcharts" within each career feel appropriate, balanced, or thematic?
  • What is your favorite specialization, and why?
  • What is your least favorite specialization, and why?
  • Are there talents you were expecting that you don't see?

Then a few quick math questions to make sure the experience investments for talents and specializations are clear.

1. How much experience would it cost for a character just starting in the Technician: Slicer specialization (p. 63) to obtain that tree's Dedication talent?

2. If a character begins as a Hired Gun: Marauder (p. 54), how much experience would it cost to obtain all six ranks of the Lethal Blow talent (hint: only three of those ranks appear in the Marauder specialization tree).

3. What is the least amount of experience a starting Colonist: Scholar (p. 47) could spend to gain Toughened x2 (i.e., a total of +2 wound threshold).

For extra credit, please show your work.

;)

 



#2 Gobbo

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 04:10 AM

 I will post later about the various thoughts on Talents.  First I will "do the math" and answer your questions.

  1. The path to Dedication would be as follows: Codebreaker [5] - Defensive Slicing [10] - Natural Programmer [15] - Defensive Slicing Rank 2 [20] - Skilled Slicer [25] - Master Slicer [25] - Mental Fortress [25] - Dedication [25].  This comes out to 150 XP [no one starts with this much, so won't be a new character.
  2. 6 levels of Lethal Blow would cost 190 XP, as you have to spend 10 XP to open up the Bounty Hunter Assassin Tree.
  3. 30 XP! Here is how: 20 XP to open any 2 of the following non-career Specializations [Bounty Hunter: Gadgeteer, Technician: Mechanic, Hired Gun: Any] then buy them each for 5 points.

 

Do I get Extra Credit?

 

;)

 



#3 ynnen

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 04:32 AM

Gobbo said:

Do I get Extra Credit?

;)

 

Excellent job! +10 XP on your next PC build.

To redeem, just send the URL to this thread to your GM… :)



#4 Gobbo

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 03:24 PM

 So, I assume that means I am right on the costs?  I running a game of this at a Local Con in Denver Labor Day weekend and wanted to make sure I got the characters right.

 



#5 cetiken

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 03:30 PM

 Am I reading the Force Sensitive Exile tree correctly in that you have togo down then over the back up to get access to the center two talents on the 10 point row?



#6 Gobbo

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 03:32 PM

cetiken said:

 Am I reading the Force Sensitive Exile tree correctly in that you have togo down then over the back up to get access to the center two talents on the 10 point row?

 

Yes, you are reading that correctly.

 



#7 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 11:10 AM

Yeah, you're reading it right.  And it is fairly weird, but given how potent some of these can be, it might be a case of the designers thinking "Well, I want to include these nifty talents, but they're pretty powerful and we've already filled out a lot of the high-end talent slots…" with the choice made (at least in the Beta) to include them at the lower point rankings, but with the caveat that you've got to jump through some hoops to get to them.

Personally, I'd swap the 20XP versions of Uncanny Senses and Uncanny Reactions with Overwhelm Emotions and Intense Focus respectively, with Uncanny Senses getting a connection to Insight and Convincing Demeanor while UR gets connected to Convincing Demeanor.


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#8 cetiken

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:06 PM

I think it's pretty neat. It gives the whole tree a unique feel. Just the way a force exile should be on the fringe. 



#9 blaked

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:07 AM

 For clarification - if you have to take the same talent twice to get to those ones in the middle - they do stack, correct?

 

so if uncanny senses gives you +1 boost die, and you take it twice, you get +2 boost dice



#10 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:23 PM

blaked said:

 For clarification - if you have to take the same talent twice to get to those ones in the middle - they do stack, correct?

 

so if uncanny senses gives you +1 boost die, and you take it twice, you get +2 boost dice

That would be correct, so long as the talents are described a being ranked (usually noted in their full description in the Talents chapter).

As Uncanny Senses is a ranked talent, if you take it twice, you would get +2 boost dice.  Same as if you took Quick Strike (also a ranked talent) three times, you'd get +3 boost dice on your attack against a foe that's not acted yet.  But if you take Quick Draw (not a ranked talent) twice, you get no added benefit.


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#11 blaked

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 01:51 AM

Donovan Morningfire said:

blaked said:

 

 For clarification - if you have to take the same talent twice to get to those ones in the middle - they do stack, correct?

 

so if uncanny senses gives you +1 boost die, and you take it twice, you get +2 boost dice

 

 

That would be correct, so long as the talents are described a being ranked (usually noted in their full description in the Talents chapter).

As Uncanny Senses is a ranked talent, if you take it twice, you would get +2 boost dice.  Same as if you took Quick Strike (also a ranked talent) three times, you'd get +3 boost dice on your attack against a foe that's not acted yet.  But if you take Quick Draw (not a ranked talent) twice, you get no added benefit.

 

Thanks for your reply - i hadn't stumbled upon the 'ranked' verbiage until I was looking through the book again this morning.  (it's on page 88)

If the talent is ranked, it stacks.  If you already have it from another tree, you essentially get it for free (it just doesn't do anything)



#12 Kallabecca

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:29 AM

If you have the talent from another tree, it doesn't count towards the new tree. You still have to buy it in the new tree to get to things below it. At least that is my understanding of the rules.



#13 GM Chris

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:41 PM

Kallabecca said:

If you have the talent from another tree, it doesn't count towards the new tree. You still have to buy it in the new tree to get to things below it. At least that is my understanding of the rules.

Check the Week One update.  ;-)

 

This is only the case if it's a Ranked talent.  Otherwise, you are treated as "already having" the talent and can advance along the tree.


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#14 Callidon

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:43 PM

:edit: 

What GM Chris said with his ninja skills.


STUFF:

Edge of the Empire: Talent Trees; Force Powers; Character Sheet

 


#15 GM Chris

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:45 PM

Callidon said:

What GM Chris said with his ninja skills.

[/melts back into the shadows]


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#16 Kallabecca

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:19 AM

GM Chris said:

Kallabecca said:

 

If you have the talent from another tree, it doesn't count towards the new tree. You still have to buy it in the new tree to get to things below it. At least that is my understanding of the rules.

 

 

Check the Week One update.  ;-)

 

This is only the case if it's a Ranked talent.  Otherwise, you are treated as "already having" the talent and can advance along the tree.

Ahh. Thanks. I hadn't fully read through the update. I just read through the book while sitting at B&N with my friend (since he owns it and I don't yet).



#17 Sorthlador

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:48 AM

 Many of the specialization tree’s lack fun abilities that make the trees really worth taking, while others have many abilities that do not have restrictive paths that are just flat out better and more rewarding to play. Below is a detailed list of my thoughts on each. Hope you enjoy a long read ?

The assassin tree is one of the best tree because its almost a solid grid connecting everything to everything and it has 8 activated abilities that are all really cool. Furthermore it only has 2 repeats (lethal blowx3 and Stalker x3), and they are both good ability’s that are useful.

The gadgeteer talent tree seems limiting to me due to the split nature of the tree. It just sorta sucks that after spending so much exp to get to the bottom you can’t cross over to get the other high levels of the tree. Makes it very divided.

Survivalist is just an awful tree. The tree is bent off hunting people in the forest. And although there are campaigns that will matter…most often it wont. Forager, and outdoorsman and expert tracker just…frankly aren’t very good. Traveling through the environment, and tracking a target while looking for food is something that rarely happens in start wars. (Not tracking people but doing so in nature). And when it does happen they are quick and fast scenes mostly because they are boring. My point being it seems like a waste of a Bounty Hunter talent tree. Why couldn’t it be Galactic tracker? Have street wise skills, or a talent that gives you a high grade tracer for free. Maybe keep expert tracker, but add it surveillance master or more activated abilities. Also Heroic fortitude is WAY at the bottom of the list while in marauder it’s in the 2nd. There’s just no reason to take the tree when just adding 1 rank…1 RANK in survival does the same thing as half of the talents on the tree. Last thought is Survivalist should be a tough as nails class, so the sweet make me tough abilities should be really early on to support that.

Doctor. I just think Anatomy Lesson should be much lower on the list. Hes trained in anatomy Long before an assassin would be…so why can’t get access it sooner. (again assassins amazing) Plus whos going to build a brawling doctor? (See Pressure point..silly)

Love the Colonist, but well rounded comes two late for it to be cost effective.

Scholar much like survivalist is just not that useful. You rarely if ever do research checks, and respected scholar seems like a waste in this campaign. Something like personal data library would be far more fitting for colonist who are on new worlds with out instates. Should droid characters automatically come with Speaks Binary? (Will repost). The 3, 4, 5th ranks are all great. But I feel like you should just move everything up. Knowledge is a wonderful thing but people aren’t willing to pay for it. Knowledge specialization should be all over the place, and well rounded should be sooner.

Fringer, is organized weird. Its got a dead end on one side and Dodge all the way at the bottom. You realize that I could multiclass into Assassin and take dodge at rank one for less the taking the first rank of dodge on fringer? I think defensive driving should connect to something else. And dedication shouldn’t be so hard to get to. It’s like your forces specializations of nothing. A Dodge should come much sooner, again 4 abilities while assassin and bodyguard have 8+.

Scout again forager just is bleh. Organizations okay, but there’s little to no pay off in this tree. Familiar suns…really? I can tell you what planet I’m on? Could be better. It’s just another tree that I’ve had 4 players look at and go oh…well it seems like smuggler I can do the same thing but better.

Trader…again smugglers just better. Its not set up in a user friendly tree way, and that’s okay but maybe the right hand side (end of each tree) as something sweet in it. Wheel and deal is great. It’s just mostly a utility class, and it would be nice to through in another useful ability.

Body guard, great! Lots of ways to go, nothing dead ends to badly. 11 abilities! Gets lots of good abilities too, i.e. useful. Brace, defensive stance and side step. Wow Why does Trader or Scholar get three ways to increase their knowledge rolls in ANY circumstance?

Note: I’m not saying that abilities are king, they are just more useful and frankly fun. Players feel like they gained something worth value by spending their points on something they can now DO.

Marauder is great for the same reasons, lots of options. Not the best tree lay out but nothing deadends. This flow just makes more sense the other careers.

LOVE the mercenary tree as well. Connecting in the middle is really important. Good one with rewarding high level abilities. Useful (I want everything on that list if I was this career.)

Pilots pretty good but I feel weird that it doesn’t connect in the middle till the end. It has good abilities and they are spaced out well to feel rewarding, but I See that you can’t connect an improved ability to something else because it means you could take it out of order. Easy rule fix you just add pre requs. Ability to get full throttle and natural pilot early is a major plus.

Scoundrel. The right side of the tree is were it’s at. Seems weird though to have to go down then back up, feels like the left side should connect sooner but not strong feelings here.

Thief and okay class, but a little underpowered I think. Its flexible though so that’s great.

Mechanic, lots of options, rewarding cool abilities. I think all specializations should be this cool.

Outlaw tech. See what I’m talking about, only 1 cool ability related to this class for outlaw teching! Could be a lot more. Think jury rigged and tinkerer should swap (1 each) feels like you should get benefit right away. Again flexible tree is nice however not many rewards worth fighting for. Gageteer gets jury rigged before Outlaw tech? What really? This class should have some ability to mod a weapon unlike any other character can. Something that makes people want to go dude can you modify my stuff? I'll pay you a lot of credits! 

Slicer, there’s another post about this but this is the most restrictive track in the game for no reason. Don’t know if your trying to restrict what they can do but there’s only one way to go, and if feels like you should get bypass security rank 2 much sooner and branch from there. Maybe one that’s more like the Trader? Rewarding class specific abilities whoever. Would be cool to see one more that’s like (take over turret, or special program subroutine.)


Overall having cool unique abilities that fit the class are what’s the most rewarding about “leveling up” a character. When your friends go oh wow that was cool it makes you feel REALLY good, and can get great role playing going. Static increases are good and needed, but just not as much fun. So many of the classes have useable every session abilities (some fighting some not) that are fun and thematic. However, all the flavor specializations, (survivalist, finger, outlaw tech, scholar, trader), really lake anything that’s cool, or fun or useful more then in rare circumstances. Gaining schematics to a building? Not epic.

Final concussion:
Each class needs to have abilities that are unique to their tree, thematically appropriate but most of all USEFUL in the day-to-day life of the game. Doesn’t need to happen every session or even every other, but it can’t be once a campaign. It just makes other classes with abilities that are more useful far better. Abilities and talents that are the same as add 1 rank in skill are not fun for players, they are fluff till the next cool ability if there are any. 


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