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A little slow on the uptake: why moving later is better


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#1 Budgernaut

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 05:25 PM

 When the game was first demoed in 2011, I was a little confused at the way the then-called initiative worked. The people at the demo table repeatedly stressed that more skilled pilots get to move second and fire first. The thing that bothered me was that your movements are already locked in by time you see the Academy Pilot move his TIE Fighter, so how is that representing an experienced pilot's ability to compensate for the novice's movement? Isn't movement basically happening at the same time?

After watching more videos, reading the cards, and thinking of my own tactics, I finally realize what the benefit is: choosing actions. While it's true that Wedge can't move into a different position it does let him choose whether he'll acquire a target lock or focus depending on if the target will be in his sights, or he will be in the target's sights. Additionally, TIE pilots with higher skill who choose the barrel roll action get to see where the opposing ships have moved before deciding to list to port or starboard, making sure they end up in the best position.

Though this issue hadn't been bothering me for a while, (because I pretty much accepted that the game was the way it was), finally understanding the tactics behind moving last and shooting first makes me even more excited for this game than I already was!


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#2 DavicusPrime

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:32 PM

 The one thing I can think of is that if you're ship ends up hitting another player's base it mucks up your actions and can keep you getting your full move.  Once the furball in the center of the table happens, the folks moving first are going to have to deal with a lot of that kind of stuff happening while those that move last will potentially have less of a problem once all the less skilled pilots clear out of the way.  This is just speculation as I haven't played yet.  But the fact that everyone's moves are locked in does make me think the moving last is less of a benefit than the shooting first is.

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#3 Manchu

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:45 PM

On the whole, shooting first is more powerful because an explosion can't shoot back or at anything else.  To me, that is another subtle encouragement to the Rebs to take more named pilots with higher PS skills while the Imps can make do with low PS generics while putting a ton of targets on the board.  An explosion may not be able to argue back but three or four additional attack vectors on you certainly can.

But OP definitely hits the nail on the head.  We didn't see actions play a dramatic role in the Gen Con final but I'd chalk that up to having more options than prep time to explore them.  Seems like both guys heavily favored focus -- although I'm not saying it didn't do them any favors -- as a default.  I can only remember two target locks and one was definitely Vader, who has an extra action anyway and so also got his "default" focus token that phase.  I hypothesize that more pratice, especially with named Y-Wing pilots, will mean taking actions into greater account.  There's definitely one point in the latter half of the game where Jeff (I hope that's the right spelling) barrel rolls his way out of an arc, which really impressed me considering we were just chatting on the forum about that being a very useful thing.



#4 Hrathen

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 05:19 PM

 It is not so much the moving is the advantage, but after you move you perform an action.  So if you move latter, you will have a better idea of where all the ships are going to end up when you pick what action you want to take.

For example if you move early you won't know if other ships are going to have good firing position on you, and even if you will have the fireing position on other ships.  So it is harder to know if you want to take an offesive action of a defensive one.

It gets even more important with manuvers like barrol roll.  This can be a great manuver, to move you into just where you want to be, or even out of an opponants firing arc, but if you don't know where the other ships are going to end up it becomes much less useful.


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#5 Nalydd

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 12:41 AM

Moving later also gives a slightly better chance to avoid collisions and losing your action.



#6 R2D2

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 02:02 AM

 just thought of another advantage to this, which was in the tournament final video:

Ship A (x-wing rookie pilot) moves, measures for target lock on Ship B and is just outside the range for it, denying it this option.

Ship B (Darth Vader) then moves, putting it that tiny bit closer and allowing a target lock!

then Vader gets to resolve attacks before the rookie pilot!

 



#7 dbmeboy

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 03:05 AM

Nalydd said:

Moving later also gives a slightly better chance to avoid collisions and losing your action.

 

At the same time, the craft that moves first might not have collided, getting its action.  Then the craft that moves second collides with the first craft, losing its action.  In that (admittedly narrow) circumstance, moving first is an advantage.



#8 Tawnos

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 05:12 AM

My experience has been that those moving later are more likely to encounter a collision.  Pilots who move first have perfect (or near perfect) knowledge of what the state of the field will be when they perform their movements.  Pilots who move later contend with a lot of unknowns, as the state of the field will have changed dramatically by the time their movement is executed.



#9 DavicusPrime

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 05:47 AM

 So far the only real benefit anyone has come up with is being able to pick your actions based on seeing more of your opponent's moves.  The order of the move seems to otherwise be a mixed bag.  Everything is locked in so you can't modify your move based on what you see. Collisions are going to happen regardless of what order you move in.  Though moving first might have an advantage for collision avoidance, since going later means that someone might have already ended up where you wanted to be.

-DavicusPrime



#10 sverigesson

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 07:46 AM

DavicusPrime said:

 So far the only real benefit anyone has come up with is being able to pick your actions based on seeing more of your opponent's moves.  The order of the move seems to otherwise be a mixed bag.  Everything is locked in so you can't modify your move based on what you see. Collisions are going to happen regardless of what order you move in.  Though moving first might have an advantage for collision avoidance, since going later means that someone might have already ended up where you wanted to be.

-DavicusPrime

Yes, depending on whether ships are headed toward a traffic jam in the middle of the board, or they are moving out of one, moving first or last can be an advantage. If you are moving toward a jam, moving last means you will likely lose your action in a collision, but if you are trying to move out of one, odds are moving last means things will have cleared up a little, but moving first you'd still have to avoid the jam and risk losing your action. Still, in general, picking your action last seems like a much better thing than that potential downfall.



#11 Tawnos

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 08:42 AM

There are upsides to either moving first or last, but considering the factions, I think that Rebels definitely have a larger upside to moving last, as it allows them opportunities for targeting locks and ion cannons.  Imperials can actually see a nice benefit from moving first, allowing them to utilize their greater speed and maneuverability to outrange those silly Rebels.

I was playing a game with a friend last week who, admittedly, had never played before.  He actually did quite well through the early game, leaving me with just a Y-wing to face off against a moderately damaged Vader and shieldless Marek Steele.  I actually ended up pulling out the win thanks to the craziness that is the ion cannon, but I learned an important lesson about Imperials that game: the Empire cannot fight the Rebels toe-to-toe in close combat.  The Rebels bringing too much firepower and tech to the table.  The Empire has to rely on maneuverability and speed, making passes on the Rebel squad and out-flying them.  And in that regard, moving first can be a significant advantage for an Empire player.



#12 Dcal12

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 12:20 PM

Budgernaut said:

 After watching more videos, reading the cards, and thinking of my own tactics, I finally realize what the benefit is: choosing actions. While it's true that Wedge can't move into a different position it does let him choose whether he'll acquire a target lock or focus depending on if the target will be in his sights, or he will be in the target's sights. Additionally, TIE pilots with higher skill who choose the barrel roll action get to see where the opposing ships have moved before deciding to list to port or starboard, making sure they end up in the best position.

 

This has bothered me too and I think you are right.  Thanks for clarifying.



#13 shmitty

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 12:24 PM

Tawnos said:

There are upsides to either moving first or last, but considering the factions, I think that Rebels definitely have a larger upside to moving last, as it allows them opportunities for targeting locks and ion cannons.  Imperials can actually see a nice benefit from moving first, allowing them to utilize their greater speed and maneuverability to outrange those silly Rebels.

Funny, I was thinking the opposite for the Imperials.  I think Barrel Roll is a hugely important ability, and one that is best used later in movement phase.



#14 Hrathen

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 04:11 PM

Nalydd said:

Moving later also gives a slightly better chance to avoid collisions and losing your action.

actually I think you have a better chance of getting into a collision if you move latter.

It is pretty easy to avoid the ships that haven't moved, becasue you know where they are when you plan your own move, but it is a bit harder to avoid the ships that move before you becasue you had to guess where they would be.


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#15 tiepilot1138

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:12 AM

It really shouldn't matter who goes first when it comes to collisions.  Both units are going to be in the same place at the end of the turn, regardless of who got there first.  Even if you move first into a clear area, you're still in a collision when your opponent crashes into you.



#16 R2D2

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:18 AM

tiepilot1138 said:

It really shouldn't matter who goes first when it comes to collisions.  Both units are going to be in the same place at the end of the turn, regardless of who got there first.  Even if you move first into a clear area, you're still in a collision when your opponent crashes into you.

 

Except that you lose your action by crashing into them, whereas they have already used their action… not to mention that you impede their full movement, potentially disrupting their lines…



#17 tiepilot1138

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 02:33 AM

R2D2 said:

tiepilot1138 said:

 

It really shouldn't matter who goes first when it comes to collisions.  Both units are going to be in the same place at the end of the turn, regardless of who got there first.  Even if you move first into a clear area, you're still in a collision when your opponent crashes into you.

 

 

 

Except that you lose your action by crashing into them, whereas they have already used their action… not to mention that you impede their full movement, potentially disrupting their lines…

 

That's true.  I had to look at the rules again.  I had thought that ships in contact couldn't fire, rendering most actions useless.  I was mistaken, and they just can't shoot AT EACH OTHER.



#18 drkjedi35

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 09:01 AM

I played my first game Saturday night.  There are advantages and dis advantages to moving last and colliding with another ship.  The disadvantage, as we have already discussed, means that you don't get your action.  The advantage is that in a collision, your ship moves backward along its path. That means that you will end up behind your potential target.  It is bad if you collide with your ONLY target since you can't attack a ship whose base you are touching, but if your enemy is bunched up, chances are you will still be behind (and possibly within Range 1, of another enemy ship.  In my game, I used Luke who went after the TIEs who were staying close together.  I was behind them and they tried to fly slowly hoping that I would pass, but even when I chose a 2 or 3 movement, I was able to stay behind them when I collided because I always had to move back along my path.  Which helped me keep them both in front of me.  I know this won't be the case all of the time, but it  was an interesting revelation.

 

Roy



#19 R2D2

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 10:47 PM

Surely that only works if you had guessed that they would be flying slow? otherwise you would still overtake…



#20 haslo

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 11:58 PM

R2D2 said:

Surely that only works if you had guessed that they would be flying slow? otherwise you would still overtake…

Aye, and if they do a Koiogran turn, you're right in their sights…


Imperials: 13 TIE Fighter, 5 TIE Advanced, 15 TIE Interceptor, 4 Slave I, 6 TIE Bomber, 5 Lambda Shuttle, 3 TIE Defender, 4 TIE Phantom

Rebels: 1 Tantive IV, 1 Rebel Transport, 7 X-Wing, 5 Y-Wing, 4 YT-1300, 6 A-Wing, 5 B-Wing, 5 HWK-290, 6 Z-95, 3 E-Wing





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