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Playable daemons?


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#1 Plushy

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:05 AM

 I was sitting in bed last night, distracting myself from insomnia by wondering about our dear heretics. The inclusion of Race in Black Crusade interested me as soon as I heard about it. So far, it looks like we'll just have Humans and Astartes. It got me wondering… would daemons work as player characters? Maybe not strictly following the rules of the setting - Daemonettes and Bloodthirsters are cool, but playing a Horror makes little sense - and just getting the general feeling across, with a similar power level to the CSM.


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#2 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:55 PM

The problem I see with Daemon PC’s is that Daemons are reflections of stored emotion. Other than Greater Daemons and (arguably) Heralds, there’s not a lot to your average Daemon. They have the potential to be quite 1-dimensional.

 

It could also be quite limiting for the campaign. Say you were playing a Bloodletter. Well… you couldn’t stand to have any Slaaneshi folks in the group, and if you ever left an area of high Warp activity you’d risk being sucked back into the warp.

Enslaved daemonic minions I could see – you’ve learnt their True Name, and thus control them – but as PC’s it might be quite difficult to pull off in a way that’s both true to the fluff and interesting for the player.
 


 

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Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

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#3 Seeten

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 03:52 AM

Pseudo-Daemonhood (Gift) turns the PC into an approximation of a Daemonette/Bloodletter/Plaguebearer or whatnot, right? What about granting that to a PC at start? Does that do what we're looking for?



#4 Sergeant Brother

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 11:40 AM

 I thought about this idea as well. I think it would be doable but would require a bit of work on the part of the player and GM, which would include some custom rules along with some development. I think that daemons could use a bit more development in 40K anyway, that is to say giving them more personality and variety in not only ability but in motivation and mental capacity. I could see, for example, a daemonette being more like a succubus than just a fighter - give her the ability to change forms, to influence minds, and the motivation (both in terms of desire and supernatural benefits) for seducing others and you could have a very interesting character. 

I think in this context, you would want to make player character daemons heralds essentially - like lesser daemons but a bit more powerful and varied. I think I might be interesting to come up with a rule set for these daemon PC's. They could grow in power on he material plane as they cause more emotions associated with their patron deity or gain more followers. They might lose energy over time that has to be restored in some appropriate fashion - like a herald of Slaanesh gains energy from seducing mortals, sexual activity, giving and/or receiving pain or pleasure. A herald of Khorne might likewise gain energy from killing, causing anger or hatred, inciting violence, leading victorious battles, etc. 

The daemon PC's would need to have human-like intellectual and reasoning ability, of course, but could also have a very inhuman mentality as well that might allow for interesting role playing opportunities. They would not go insane or become corrupted, but they may lose themselves at times to the emotions associated with their Chaos God and could perhaps resist with Willpower rolls. They could grow weaker from lack of emotions associated with their deity and might have to deal with instability, then again they may have mortal followers or allies who could summon them back if they are destroyed. 

I think it could be fun to try.



#5 Cifer

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:07 PM

Meh. IMO, Daemons, along with Necrons and certain other terrors that hunt in the night should remain the big terrors of the 40k 'verse. Handing these to players vastly humanizes them.



#6 Blood Pact

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:19 AM

Seeten said:

 

Pseudo-Daemonhood (Gift) turns the PC into an approximation of a Daemonette/Bloodletter/Plaguebearer or whatnot, right? What about granting that to a PC at start? Does that do what we're looking for?

 

 

Well, under the description of the Gift, the PC's mind and personality remain pretty much intact. Which is the big difference to a true Daemon. Minor Daemons are pretty much subsumed in to the overall personality of their patron God, even if they began as mortals. And the more unique entities all seem to be quite a bit too powerful, even for Advanced Archetypes (which all seem to bring BC up to Deathwatch levels of XP, The Trickster is more powerful still).

 

But in theory, it is still doable… anyone wanting to play Slaanesh should be required to read Fulgrim though. Say what you will about writing quality, but that book really gets it right, when it comes to what Slaanesh is about.



#7 Plushy

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:51 PM

 Now that I think about it, would a bound Daemonhost be a fun character?


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

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#8 Blood Pact

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:44 AM

I don't know about that.

But I suddenly recall, based upon readings of the HH novels, specifically The First Heretic, that possessed characters are probably going to happen before we're given rules for playing full-on minor daemons. Since in TFH, the process is presented more as a symbiosis, as opposed to the daemon climbing in to the Space Marine's flesh and straight up taking over.

The specifics of such a possession are probably different than the usual sort, of course.



#9 K0balt

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 03:13 AM

In Black Crusade, Daemons are sorta already humanized. The sentient ones at least, the ones you can discuss, plan and bargain with. One of my players is a possessed psyker, his soul a merging of daemonic and human. His detachment from all things material makes him credible, for the time at least. He still manages to be … weird. Which is good.



#10 TheHeavenlyLily

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:49 PM

To get the feel of how to play a possessed character/daemonhost look at CthulhuTech and the Tagers there, along with the new metamorphosis rules to become something even more alien.



#11 Plushy

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 04:36 PM

I'm struggling to think of a way to make them something other than just a better CSM Sorcerer. And can you have a Khornate Daemonhost?


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#12 Dige

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 10:58 PM

Hello!

There is always the possibility of playing non-alighmented or Independent Daemons, which are not that much focused in background. And as they are not so well refined as their God-serving cousins, they could be way more varied in form and spirit.

I think the old Realms of Chaos books had different origins for Daemons, but right now I do not have time to look them up. However, I think that GW is currently focused on their own four gods so much that not much will be done to the Independents. Nor they will allow FFG probably do anything about them, sadly. T

This idea is nice, and I think playing a Daemon would be definently intresting. Yet the daemons of four gods should be left nonplayable, as they are too much forced to their own paths (and 40k needs their own Eldrich Abominations, too much humanisation/flanderisation going on here).

-Dige



#13 Cryhavok

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:08 AM

Besides the things others have already said, I will refer you to the Deamonhunter book for dark heresy. One of it's chapters is rules for building deamonic adversaries for your game. If you decide to expand on the idea of having demonic PCs it should prove a very useful read. (also the grey knights in it are 1000 times scarier than the BC ones hehe)



#14 Blood Pact

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:12 PM

Plushy said:

I'm struggling to think of a way to make them something other than just a better CSM Sorcerer. And can you have a Khornate Daemonhost?

Of course you can have a Khornate Daemonhost.

And you need to remember that Daemons aren't all about being psychic/sorcerous. Daemons have claws and teeth, and it's not uncommon for them to use those to rend your pathetic fleshy mortal form apart for their own amusement. Or scorch you with multicoloured flames. The point I'm getting at here is that being possessed doesn't suddenly turn you in to a super-sorcerer.



#15 Plushy

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:13 PM

Blood Pact said:

Plushy said:

 

I'm struggling to think of a way to make them something other than just a better CSM Sorcerer. And can you have a Khornate Daemonhost?

 

 

Of course you can have a Khornate Daemonhost.

And you need to remember that Daemons aren't all about being psychic/sorcerous. Daemons have claws and teeth, and it's not uncommon for them to use those to rend your pathetic fleshy mortal form apart for their own amusement. Or scorch you with multicoloured flames. The point I'm getting at here is that being possessed doesn't suddenly turn you in to a super-sorcerer.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about the daemon that possesses a corpse in the second Enforcer book. That was a damn good section in an otherwise iffy read.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#16 Blood Pact

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:24 AM

Edit: wierd…

Only the first post appeared until I replied, I thought it was an entirely new thread on the subject.



#17 Apache

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 12:37 AM

Use the Possessed Trait on page 142 and, as the GM ignore any bits that don't make sense for your campaign idea. As GM you are stronger and more powerful than all four Chaos Gods and the Corpse-Emperor put together. Remember the Golden Rule of Roleplay; the books are only guidelines on how to play.

 

If you want to run a game where the players are Daemons or Daemonhosts then it's your game to run and fit the system to how you want to run it. Your Daemons can manifest wholly in the Materium.

 

You could also, for a bit more fun, and a better game imo, you could run with regular generated characters with the following homebrew rules:

 

 

Therianthropic Daemon (Trait)

The warp sometimes curses those from beyond as much as those within the Materium. On rare occasions a Daemonic possession can go horrifically wrong, causing a fusion between man and warp-beast. A symbiotic relationship is born, body and mind of both creatures forging a truly horrifying abomination, allowing full control over form and power.

 

While in human form, the character gains the benefits of the Illusion of Normalcy Gift of the Gods. At any time out of combat, they can transform from Mortal to Daemon, shedding the Illusion of Normalcy to show their true form.

 

Characters with this Trait can no longer gain Corruption. The character also gains a Daemonic Name. The mortal side of the Therianthropic Daemon is just as vulnerable to the power of its True Name as the Daemon.

 

 

New Skill: Therianthropic Transformation (Toughness)

This allows the Therianthropic Daemon can change between Mortal and Daemon forms as a Full Round Action within combat. At Rank 2 (Trained), this is reduced to a Half Round Action. At Rank 3 (Experienced), this is reduced to a Free Action. At Rank 4 (Veteran), the change can be performed as a Reaction.

 

It'd be up to you to decide how you want to add the Daemon side into it, either by giving a separate character sheet for the Daemon, or just by adding the relevent Traits and stat mods to the character.

 

The game is yours to play around with, edit, take in brand new directions.

 

Have fun!



#18 Amroth

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 08:26 AM

I do like Dige's idea of playing a non-aligned daemon as this gives far more scope for role-playing and character development. Ironically you can already play as a daemon in Rogue Trader (although the odds of this are very slim). By picking the tainted-mutant lure of the void and rolling up hellspawn on the mutations table you are already playing a daemonic character.

 

Using this methodology and with allowance from the GM you could essentially make the character using the starting rules but modifying with the hellspawn background (or pseudo daemon for those with just bc) to make the character a daemon at start up.

 

This would not represent someone who began their existence as a daemon but who through extreme exposure to the warp, dark rituals or whatever other fluff you would like to come up with has transformed into a daemon. Note this is just a daemonic entity and does not represent someone reaching the heady heights of becoming a daemon prince which still requires earning the necessary infamy meaning spawndom is still factor for those who reach their corruption threshold without getting the required infamy as their daemonic bodies twist and mutate horribly out of control without the favour of the Chaos Gods to bring them to true apotheosis.



#19 Morangias

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:02 PM

I think there is an inherent problem with demons being a playable option when becoming a demon is an assumed ending to the campaign.

 

Maybe if BC gets an Ascension-like supplement one day, with the Heretics assembling a mighty Black Crusade and waging war with the Empire at large, there'll be an option to play your former character as a Demon Prince.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#20 Amroth

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 04:35 PM

I think there is an inherent problem with demons being a playable option when becoming a demon is an assumed ending to the campaign.

 

Maybe if BC gets an Ascension-like supplement one day, with the Heretics assembling a mighty Black Crusade and waging war with the Empire at large, there'll be an option to play your former character as a Demon Prince.

 

Do remember though there is a huge difference between being merely a daemon or a daemon prince and just because one is a daemon doesn't mean they can't aspire to the glory of full princedom or alternatively fear spawndom as a price of failure.

 

I do love your idea though of having a supplement out for playing a daemon prince and bringing further ruination to the realms of the false Emperor. That would rock!






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