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Why the HUGE difference in Characteristic Advances between classes?


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#1 wolph42

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:27 AM

I've copied the characteristic advances (e.g WS +5 costs 100 for a rogue trader) in an excel sheet and looked at the differences per class. And came to the disturbing conclusion that if e.g. a Rogue trader were to buy EVERYTHING to a +20 it would cost: 24.300 XP while if an astropath would do the same it'll cost her 27.450 XP thats 3.150 XP MORE!!

Now you could argue that perhapds the skills or talents are cheaper or have access to 'better' but although its pretty hard to compare, I don't really see any difference between the two, save the fact that I'm inclined to say that the Rogue Trader got the better of those too. (but that's arguable).

My question is: why is there a difference AT ALL? I understand that +5WS for a RT is cheaper then a +5WS for an astropath and vice versa for WP, not arguing about that, but the total costs to advance IMO should be the same all over. Actually I would expect event the totals per step (simple,  intermediate, etc) should be the same.

Now before I go messing with this I first would like to know if I'm overlooking something vitally important that explains this.

 

Here a short list of the total costs to set each stat to +20:

Rogue Trader 24.300
Arch-militant 26.550
Astropath 27.450
Explorator 26.550
Missionary 24.300
Navigator 26.550
Seneschal 24.300

Average 25.537

 EDIT: after looking at it better I've seen some patterns which can be generalized over all the characteristics. If you do that you will come to the following conclusion

Simple 100/250/500 2/5/2
Intermediate 250/500/750 2/5/2
Trained 500/750/1000 3/3/3/3
Expert 750/1000/2500 3/3/3/3

E.g. There are 9 simple (+5) advancedments which either cost 100, 250 or 500 XP. It turns out that the most common is 2 advancements cost 100XP, 5 advancements cost 250XP and again 2 advancements cost 500 XP. You can use this method to adjust all the XP costs for all careers. If someone is interested I can post a link to an xls with these changes.



#2 Fgdsfg

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:01 AM

Characteristics advances are ultimately the same as all other advances, and not all careers have the same number of advances or the same costs. Astropaths have more expensive Characteristics Advances than the Rogue Trader, but instead have access to Talents and Skills that the Rogue Trader can only dream about without taking Elite Advances, including Psychic Techniques.

The only thing that really differentiates Characteristics Advances to that of regular advances such as Talents, Skills (and sometimes, Traits) is that they can be taken independently at any Rank. Think of it that way instead.


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#3 wolph42

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:33 AM

Thanks you for the reply, but… not only is it not really a satisfying answer its also self-contradictory. If I follow your reasoning to say that the Navigator, Astropath and Missionary (Faith Powers) have access to powers the other can only dream of and thus this is compensated in a higher XP cost to buy stats…

However If I sort them:

Missionary 24.300
Rogue Trader 24.300
Seneschal 24.300
Navigator 26.550
Arch-militant 26.550
Explorator 26.550
Astropath 27.450
 

Then only the Astropath is 'nerfed', moreover the missionary has even the best deal!! So that can't be it.



#4 Norticus Noctum

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:43 AM

Well you are comparing classes and you found different things, that hows you are diligent in your reaserch.

But if have time for that do maybe the same for Warhammer FRP or simply D&D even. Each of them is different because the authors written it like that. You my good friend try to compare Warrior with Wizard characteristic and skill advances (pointles).

"One more thing", even if they are different and the totalls don't match it is IMPOSSIBRUUU!!! to buy out everything on the advances chart, unless you ignore characteristics, and there is no real or satisfying answer to your dilema.

"Things just happen. What the hell."

The "classes" so to speak in RT are realy more of a multiclass character from D&D for they may have many talents.

Example: I created Astropath with more or less usefull powers for communication/mind control and Vaders death grip + 65BS two weapon wielder(balistic) and Ambidextrous, eqiped with recoil Gloves and Basic WTU. you have gunsinger with mental powers. You can also do Gunslinger from RT because he even has the talent to buy, but he still won't be able to use psychic powers (onless mutated or something with origin path gives him the possibility).

That's the biggest difference in D&D you use D20 so most warrior-like-classes will have STR 15-18 (up to 25) your mage also could have that but it will cost you extra as it does according to your resarch.

 

Don't know if you are satisfied with that kind of answer.

 

 



#5 Fgdsfg

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 07:37 AM

wolph42 said:

Thanks you for the reply, but… not only is it not really a satisfying answer its also self-contradictory. If I follow your reasoning to say that the Navigator, Astropath and Missionary (Faith Powers) have access to powers the other can only dream of and thus this is compensated in a higher XP cost to buy stats…

However If I sort them:

Missionary 24.300
Rogue Trader 24.300
Seneschal 24.300
Navigator 26.550
Arch-militant 26.550
Explorator 26.550
Astropath 27.450
 

Then only the Astropath is 'nerfed', moreover the missionary has even the best deal!! So that can't be it.

That's not at all what I said. I said Including Psychic Techniques. It was an example; It could be applicable to any career - they all have things no-one else does, in varying degrees. Hell, if I had a say, it would be even more slanted - the Arch-Militant should definitely be able to buy WS and BS at the lowest cost, imo.

My argument still stands; Think of them like any other Advancement. Why are you only tallying the Characteristics Advancements? Why not the Skills or the Talents? And who is going to be able to, let alone want to, buy all their Advancements? No-one.


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#6 Cornwallis

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:07 PM

i take it as a deterrent from buying characteristics for that class, as astropaths are generally not supposed to have the best builds and instead focus on their techniques



#7 wolph42

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:52 PM

Thanks for the replies. So the basic reply, if I may be so blatant to sumarise all your comments in two lines: classes are different and this is reflected in everything, including characteristic advancements.

The other one is: no one is ever going to buy ALL the advances so it doesn't matter anyway.

 

The latter I find a bogus reply, half of it is true: no one is every gonna buy them all, but that's no argument to thus disbalance a system at the perimeters.

The first one is obviously a very valid answer and one I had realised myself as well. So I DID check into the Talents and Skills and I can only conclude that, lets take the Astropath vs Rogue Trader, is even *more* nerfed in terms of skills and talents. Again granted, the Astropath has access to powers, but do realise that for that she too has to pay XP.

I fully understand that BS for an arch militant should be cheaper then for e.g. an Navigator, or that an Astropath pays 100xp more for Dodge then a Rogue Trader. I do understand that different classes get access to different things, but that's the whole point 'access'. Balancing a system in access to skills or talents between the classes is what makes it versatile. But balancing it in terms of core characteristics is IMO a very bad idea.

To take the example of comparing a fighter vs a wizard, good one, that actually shows what I'm pointing at: both get the same amount characteristic pionts, both to start with AND when they level up at the SAME XP cost. This counts for WFRP (2nd) and for D&D (3.5). The differences are in e.g. HP vs MP skills, talents etc. but NOT in characteristic points.

 

Anyway in the mean time I've looked at Black Crusade and Only War and I noticed that FFG realised this as well, as they straightened this out and made all the classes on this point equal. I guess this is just one of those points where the writers didn't completely think things through.



#8 BirdofHermes

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:52 AM

wolph42, please correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like central argument is that ATs have been nerfed by having to pay more for statistic advances than other classes.  I would like to understand how you feel this has made them either unplayable or sufficiently inferior to every other class in the game because I don't see it.

Consider for a moment the following AT powers and there costs:

-Delude (100xp): +30 interaction skill test against target.  This power alone can put even a tongue tied AT on par with a charismatic RT that spent 350 for two Fellowship advances.

-Force Bolt (200xp), Psychic Scream (300xp),ect: Attack powers that scale with Psy Rating.  More importantly they let the character use Willpower to attack bypassing the need for better Ballistic Skill/Weapon Skill.

-Puppet Master (500xp): Yes it is expensive but you can literally possess a targets body, gaining that characters physical attributes, while retaining your mental ones.  No other character can do anything like this.

-Force Weapon Quality Power (0xp).  As a Near Unique item Naduesh Force Weapons are not easy for a player to acquire early on.  However, once a AT gets there hands on one of these weapons they will wield what is arguably the single most deadly melee weapon in the game.

This is just a small sample of what AT characters can do that makes them not just effective party members but also very cool characters.



#9 HappyDaze

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:14 AM

wolph42 said:

Anyway in the mean time I've looked at Black Crusade and Only War and I noticed that FFG realised this as well, as they straightened this out and made all the classes on this point equal. I guess this is just one of those points where the writers didn't completely think things through.

In regards to Black Crusade, you may be correct, but your belief on Only War is false. Some specialties get more Aptitudes than others, and this will cause (intended) imbalances in the costs associated with Characteristic Advances.


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#10 crisaron

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:48 AM

wolph42 said:

[…]To take the example of comparing a fighter vs a wizard, good one,… […]

 

I stopped reading there…

 



#11 Fgdsfg

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 03:29 AM

crisaron said:

wolph42 said:

 

[…]To take the example of comparing a fighter vs a wizard, good one,… […]

 

 

 

I stopped reading there…

 

I didn't, and now I want 1 minute of my life back.


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#12 macd21

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 02:42 AM

wolph42 said:

Thanks for the replies. So the basic reply, if I may be so blatant to sumarise all your comments in two lines: classes are diffrent and this is reflected in everything, including characteristic advancements.

The other one is: no one is ever going to buy ALL the advances so it doesn't matter anyway.

 

The latter I find a bogus reply, half of it is true: no one is every gonna buy them all, but that's no argument to thus disbalance a system at the perimeters.

You're missing the point.

The system isn't unbalanced. You're just working under false assumptions. The fact that the attribute costs are different doesn't mean they are unbalanced. You have to look at everything as a whole, which you aren't. The fact that the PC won't be buying all of the attributes is important because those costs may never come into play. Instead the PC can spend the xp on his other options, such as skills, talents and powers. It's about more than just availability - a given career may not only have access to powers but be able to buy them cheaply. Certain traits (attributes, skills etc) may be more expensive for one career, but that's because buying them allows that character to do things outside the career's normal range of options, broadening their options.

So, while career X may have more expensive attributes it doesn't really matter. The PC can instead focus his xp on other areas where he can buy stuff cheaply. While yes the other talents/skills for that career may also be expensive, not every ability is equal - he may be spending 300 xp for a powerful talent where another career would spend 300xp on a crap one.



#13 Fgdsfg

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 03:20 AM

macd21 said:

wolph42 said:

 

Thanks for the replies. So the basic reply, if I may be so blatant to sumarise all your comments in two lines: classes are diffrent and this is reflected in everything, including characteristic advancements.

The other one is: no one is ever going to buy ALL the advances so it doesn't matter anyway.

 

The latter I find a bogus reply, half of it is true: no one is every gonna buy them all, but that's no argument to thus disbalance a system at the perimeters.

 

You're missing the point.

The system isn't unbalanced. You're just working under false assumptions. The fact that the attribute costs are different doesn't mean they are unbalanced. You have to look at everything as a whole, which you aren't. The fact that the PC won't be buying all of the attributes is important because those costs may never come into play. Instead the PC can spend the xp on his other options, such as skills, talents and powers. It's about more than just availability - a given career may not only have access to powers but be able to buy them cheaply. Certain traits (attributes, skills etc) may be more expensive for one career, but that's because buying them allows that character to do things outside the career's normal range of options, broadening their options.

So, while career X may have more expensive attributes it doesn't really matter. The PC can instead focus his xp on other areas where he can buy stuff cheaply. While yes the other talents/skills for that career may also be expensive, not every ability is equal - he may be spending 300 xp for a powerful talent where another career would spend 300xp on a crap one.

And let's not get started on how different careers would - mostly - like certain Characteristics more than others.

An Arch-Militant would at the very least want at least three charactersitics: BS/WS, Toughness, Agility.
An Astropath could easily get away with Willpower and, maybe, Intelligence.
An skill-muppet Explorator? Intelligence, Intelligence, Intelligence.

In the most basic sense, of course. It all depends on the character. Imagine what a Fellowship-based Arch-Militant would have to spend, compared a Telepathy-based Astropath. :|


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#14 wolph42

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 11:26 AM

Once again, thanks for the replies. Yes of course you have to look a the whole and yes of course will you NEVER gonna buy ALL the char advances.

It thus boils down to options. What options do you have and when are the amount of option you get in balance with what you can achieve with it. Especially rogue trader is too diverse to look e.g. solely at Fel OR Combat OR Skill as the game requires all three. You'll need strong Fel in your party to deal with 'deals', strong skill to deal with…well, things you need to do (open safes, doors, search for object, use data slates, scanners, etc etc and you'll need strong combat orientated characters to deal with combat.

So indeed HOW do you balance an explorator vs a rogue trader vs a arch-militant… I guess it can only be done in terms of options.

Options are in this game made available through skill and talents, well, skills mainly, so there's your key. Characteristics simply make you 'better' at it.

Since its very hard to balance out a system throughout ALL its variables itsusually easier to balance it out per section, which is the point I want to make.

But lets take an earlier remark,

- if you're in for the roleplay e.g. closing that deal than Fel is key. So Fel for a RT is vital.

- if you're in for the skills e.g. de tech, security, knowledge, etc. then Int is key. So for an Seneschal Int is vital

- if you're infor the combat e.g. melee, then S,T,WS and Ag are key. So for an Arch-militant these all are vital.

If you look at it this way (as this is one of the arguments made) then WHY are the characteristic advancements for an Arch-Militant more expensive than the other two?

 

 

 



#15 Fgdsfg

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 11:52 AM

wolph42 said:

[…]

If you look at it this way (as this is one of the arguments made) then WHY are the characteristic advancements for an Arch-Militant more expensive than the other two?

Why does an Explorator get Maglev Grace and an Arch-Militant doesn't?


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#16 HappyDaze

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 01:01 PM

Fgdsfg said:

wolph42 said:

[…]

 

If you look at it this way (as this is one of the arguments made) then WHY are the characteristic advancements for an Arch-Militant more expensive than the other two?

 

Why does an Explorator get Maglev Grace and an Arch-Militant doesn't?

 

A perfectly good question since Arch-Militants can come from many origins, including the Crimson Guard.


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#17 Fgdsfg

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 02:31 PM

HappyDaze said:

Fgdsfg said:

 

wolph42 said:

[…]

 

If you look at it this way (as this is one of the arguments made) then WHY are the characteristic advancements for an Arch-Militant more expensive than the other two?

 

Why does an Explorator get Maglev Grace and an Arch-Militant doesn't?

 

 

 

A perfectly good question since Arch-Militants can come from many origins, including the Crimson Guard.

For the purposes of mechanics, the Arch-Militant as presented in Rogue Trader is quite clearly not intended to be representative of the Skitarii. That said, I really wish that the Lathe Worlds Alternate Career Ranks had Rogue Trader equivalents. But on the other hand, I'm stilling missing an Assassin and Medical/Adept career for Rogue Trader too. And an Arbitrator equivalent, somewhere between Voidmaster/Arch-Militant and Seneschal. One day I'll get around to homebrewing it.

One day.


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#18 HappyDaze

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 05:51 PM

I do find it baffling that the OP thinks that the cost differences for Characteristic Advances are so significant. At most, it's less than a 13% difference in cost, and that's only if you for some reason have to buy every advance. I have yet to see any of the Characteristic Advances priced at over 500xp get purchased - there's always been something much better to spend the xp on.


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#19 macd21

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 07:21 PM

HappyDaze said:

Fgdsfg said:

 

wolph42 said:

[…]

 

If you look at it this way (as this is one of the arguments made) then WHY are the characteristic advancements for an Arch-Militant more expensive than the other two?

 

Why does an Explorator get Maglev Grace and an Arch-Militant doesn't?

 

 

 

A perfectly good question since Arch-Militants can come from many origins, including the Crimson Guard.

In which case you could grant the Arch-Militant access to Maglev Grace as an elite advance.



#20 Fgdsfg

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 12:41 AM

macd21 said:

HappyDaze said:

 

Fgdsfg said:

 

wolph42 said:

[…]

 

If you look at it this way (as this is one of the arguments made) then WHY are the characteristic advancements for an Arch-Militant more expensive than the other two?

 

Why does an Explorator get Maglev Grace and an Arch-Militant doesn't?

 

 

 

A perfectly good question since Arch-Militants can come from many origins, including the Crimson Guard.

 

 

In which case you could grant the Arch-Militant access to Maglev Grace as an elite advance.

I think that if you want to do a proper Skitarii or Crimson Guard Arch-Militant, you almost have to make it a whole Alternate career Rank, with a whole slew of advances otherwise unobtainable to Arch-Militants. Not to mention the things it should start with - including the whole Mechanicus Implants package.


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Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.





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